Taming: The only way to make cash

Taming is, far and away, the easiest way to make money on this server. It's so much faster and easier than any other method that it's creating a problem: everyone who wants money has to make a tamer. Anything else is a waste of time. Soon the shard will be flooded with tamers camping the dungeons with their WWs and mares if some parity is not created between the classes in PvM.

Dexers can't even begin to compare with tamers in PvM. Doesn't matter if they're 7x GM with a silver vanq weapon hunting liches and lich lords: they can't even come close to the amount of money that tamers make.
Mages also suffer due to the fact that all high level monsters instantly cure and dispel. Even if you COULD use Energy Vortex, they are pretty weak. They seem to do about 15 damage per hit and don't poison.
One can argue that dexers and mages don't deserve to make as much money as more PvM oriented classes, which is fine. Everyone needs mages and dexers for PvP anyways. That argument doesn't apply to Bards, which is a PvM oriented class, and yet they are also left in the dust by almighty tamers.

Stronger monsters don't do very much damage to each other. It takes minutes for monsters to kill one another, even if you use discordance to weaken one. You can't leave the screen to find more monsters, because all bardic skills stop working if you break line of sight. And of course, you can't provoke strong monsters onto weak monsters, because you can never find them in the same area. I dreamed of luring a demon into an area filled with earth elementals and wreaking havok, but alas, it just doesn't happen.

On the other hand, tamers have access to 2 extremely powerful pets that they can command to attack any creatures in the game, including lesser ones that they can slaughter in seconds, to make money rediculously fast. A blood elemental dies in seconds to a white wyrm and nightmare. Pets don't stop fighting if you leave the screen. And there's the further advantage of pets acting like giant meat shields, going in first and taking all the damage for the tamer. And the fact that taming is a semi-useful PvP skill while barding is totally useless in PvP.

All of the dungeons seem to be severely tilted in favor of tamers. I constantly find myself thinking how easy everything would be if I had a white wyrm and nightmare around. I could just slaughter everything in seconds with little to no risk to myself. As a bard, I constantly find myself frustrated by the lack of any good monsters to provoke onto each other. In a few specific areas you can find pairs of high-level bardable creatures, like demons, but they just don't kill each other quickly, and mana dumping / EVing doesn't make up the difference. I always ask myself: WHY am I wasting my time GMing one of the hardest skills in the game, Provokation, when I could take the easy way out and make a tamer?

My suggestions to prevent the shard from becoming a trammel-like tamer fest are as follows:

Modify the loot/spawn times of mid- and mid-high level creatures like liches and lich lords, so that an efficient warrior using a strong magic weapon can make a decent amount of money over time off of them, when compared to tamers.

Increase the power of Energy Vortexes dramatically so that mages actually have a method of killing monsters with obscene amounts of HP like balrons. Make it so that they don't attack mid-low level monsters to prevent imbalances. (Essentially just set EVs back to the way they were in the semi-old days on OSI shards.). Monsters would still dispel EVs, but if the mage manages to run a monster out of mana, he could use EV to kill efficiently.

Create areas where bards will be able to hunt efficiently, to put them on par with tamers in PvM. I've yet to find a place where I haven't had to drag monsters all over the place just to try to provoke them on one another. Also consider allowing bardic skills (or at least provokation) to remain in effect while the bard leaves the screen.

Let bards effect some of the tougher monsters. Is it fair that WWs can kill vampires in seconds, but they're completely immune to all bardic skills? Is it fair that a WW + mare + tamer with vet can take on bosses that a bard can't even effect? This would also lead to the ability for bards to provoke bosses onto weaker monsters and kill much more efficiently. It would be almost as though the bard has their own pet dragon! Except a lot more risky and difficult to control.

By increasing the power of melees, mages, and bards in pvm, maybe the tide of trammelite tamer doods can be stemmed. Even if you don't like my ideas, the fact still stands that tamers OWN PvM currently, and it's foolish to use anything else if you want to make cash. Please do something before it's too late Majere.

i've been killed on my tamer, AND my pets have been killed too. taming isn't the only way to make money... it's just the easiest!

if taming is taken away on this shard, i'm sure most of the population will be gone.

and if things get all screwed up, then again, a lot of ppl will leave. most people like the shard the way it is.. why does anything need to be changed?

I think that if bards could provoke tougher monsters, they'd be more help against boss monsters too, for example, he'd be able to provoke the vampires that spawn while fighting Akasha and make her actually manageable to kill for a small group.

<i've been killed on my tamer, AND my pets have been killed too.>

So you actually expect to be invulnerable on your tamer? It's true that tamers have more to lose than other classes when they die, but they are also the least likely of any class to die! The dragons are the ones taking all of the damage. And it's not even that hard to tame a new mare and WW.

<taming isn't the only way to make money... it's just the easiest!>

Yes. The easiest, by quite a margin. Why use anything else, especially when you have 5 character slots? Everyone can make a tamer for cash farming.

<if taming is taken away on this shard, i'm sure most of the population will be gone.>

If most of the server is SO dependant on taming as a source of income that taking it away would mean they have to quit... that just speaks volumes in itself.

<and if things get all screwed up, then again, a lot of ppl will leave. most people like the shard the way it is.. why does anything need to be changed?>

Wow, yes, of course. The entire server and everything in it is PERFECT. Majere has divine insight from god himself, so he's already got everything on the server perfect. He no longer needs to add or adjust anything to the server.

You already admitted yourself:<taming isn't the only way to make money... it's just the easiest!> There's a definate imbalance here, and it needs to be adressed before the entire shard turns into an OSI style tamer fest.




Never did I suggest nerfing tamers in my entire post. All I want is for other classes to be able to make reasonable amounts of money compared to tamers.

EDIT: Ninniux's post made me think... one feature I would really like to see is for a limited form of Discordance to work on boss monsters, if your skill is at GM. Maybe only 1/2 or 1/4 the effect, with a smaller chance of success. Same for peacemake, only the duration would be greatly shortened and the chance to succeed not too high. Then bards would be sought after for fighting bosses.

Taming is, far and away, the easiest way to make money on this server. It's so much faster and easier than any other method

You forget the days and days of no stop training it takes to train taming...

that it's creating a problem: everyone who wants money has to make a tamer.

And take the risk of being killed by player killers.

Dexers can't even begin to compare with tamers in PvM. Doesn't matter if they're 7x GM with a silver vanq weapon

This is complete bull, I have tested and I know for a fact dexters can kill LLs very easy if they know what they are doing.

hunting liches and lich lords: they can't even come close to the amount of money that tamers make.

Maybe they can't make it as fast, but they sure can make it.

Even if you COULD use Energy Vortex, they are pretty weak. They seem to do about 15 damage per hit and don't poison.

You have to take in mind the impack that would cause on PVP.

That argument doesn't apply to Bards, which is a PvM oriented class, and yet they are also left in the dust by almighty tamers.

A bard can make as quite a good living if he hunts th right spots.

You can't leave the screen to find more monsters, because all bardic skills stop working if you break line of sight.

This I might be changed so it won't break when the bard leaves LOS, so it is more like the way it was before powerscrolls.

And of course, you can't provoke strong monsters onto weak monsters, because you can never find them in the same area. I dreamed of luring a demon into an area filled with earth elementals and wreaking havok, but alas, it just doesn't happen.

There are a few places one can do this.

On the other hand, tamers have access to 2 extremely powerful pets that they can command to attack any creatures in the game, including lesser ones that they can slaughter in seconds, to make money rediculously fast.

Then along comes a player killer that camps and looks for tamers to kill and takes that money, kill their pets. Tamers by far have the most to lose when they play.

Risk = Reward?

A blood elemental dies in seconds to a white wyrm and nightmare.

They also die in seconds to a mage and a dexter that knows what they are doing.

All of the dungeons seem to be severely tilted in favor of tamers.

Notice the empty rooms in places for people to camp, notice that you can't gate to or from dungeons.

I constantly find myself thinking how easy everything would be if I had a white wyrm and nightmare around. I could just slaughter everything in seconds with little to no risk to myself.

Til that player killer runs up and kills you then your pet. Kill the tamer the the pets are useless, Also a tamer needs vet to keep their pet alive and healed...

I always ask myself: WHY am I wasting my time GMing one of the hardest skills in the game, Provokation, when I could take the easy way out and make a tamer?

Tamers are not fast to make at all they are on the anti macro code like a few other skills, bard skills aren't on the anti macro code and are fast to make.

Modify the loot/spawn times of mid- and mid-high level creatures like liches and lich lords, so that an efficient warrior using a strong magic weapon can make a decent amount of money over time off of them, when compared to tamers.

I feel that this is nearly perfect a it is, some spawns might need to be tweaked out some but that is about it.

Create areas where bards will be able to hunt efficiently, to put them on par with tamers in PvM. I've yet to find a place where I haven't had to drag monsters all over the place just to try to provoke them on one another.

There are at least two places outdoors where lichs and lich lords can easily be provked together without much luring.

Also consider allowing bardic skills (or at least provokation) to remain in effect while the bard leaves the screen.

A good point there.

Let bards effect some of the tougher monsters. Is it fair that WWs can kill vampires in seconds, but they're completely immune to all bardic skills?

There are highend monsters bards can provoke, in fact I added a new one in with the last map patch.

Is it fair that a WW + mare + tamer with vet can take on bosses that a bard can't even effect?

Yes it is.
Ask yourself this, is it fair that some monster do 4x damage to tame pets?
Yes it is. Every class has it speciality

I think that if bards could provoke tougher monsters, they'd be more help against boss monsters too, for example, he'd be able to provoke the vampires that spawn while fighting Akasha and make her actually manageable to kill for a small group.

I wanted it so it would take a large group to kill her, btw tamers can not kill her only mages have.

I disagree with some of your points Majere.

<You forest the days and days of no stop training it takes to train taming...>

Have you tried GMing provokation? It's actually a very difficult skill to raise. Although bardic skills arent effected by anti macro code, you still have to find monsters of the appropriate difficulty and provoke them. They inevitably kill each other and you have to move on and find more monsters. It would be very hard to set up a way to macro provoke unattended. You would need a tamer to get various levels of creatures, and you would need boats or a special setup in a house where you can provoke them and they won't be able to hit one another... as to which one actually takes more effort to GM I'm not sure, but just keep in mind that Provoke is by no means an easy skill to raise.

<And take the risk of being killed by player killers.>
Yes, tamers are vulnerable to player killers. They can lose their pets. But a typical bard template will also not include wrestling or magic resist which means they are also very vulnerable to PKs, and dont have dragons to protect them. I have watched Drithe play and deal with PKs on his tamer. Sometimes he kills them, most of the time he gates out. Rarely does he lose his pets. Perhaps I just haven't been around the dungeons long enough to notice PKers constantly running through looking for tamers. Maybe I should make a tamer-PKer and make money that way, hahaha.


<This is complete bull, I have tested and I know for a fact dexters can kill LLs very easy if they know what they are doing.>
Yes dexers can kill LLs and liches quickly. But they need to have high resist, which is as hard as taming or harder to raise I hear, as well as a very strong magic weapon which is worth more money than the dragon the tamer uses, and is not as easily replaced. (You can't gate to the silver/vanq spawn location and tame one so easily.) The tamer can kill the LLs just as fast or faster, with less risk to himself since the dragon is doing the fighting. But I suppose you are right, a really decked out warrior could make good cash off undead with a silver vanq, or other kinds of monsters with a slayer weapon. Maybe they dont need adjustment in this area.

<Even if you COULD use Energy Vortex, they are pretty weak. They seem to do about 15 damage per hit and don't poison.>
<You have to take in mind the impack that would cause on PVP.>
As far as the changes I suggested for energy vortex, the increase in power could also be combined with slowing down the movement speed. Specificly I think that the damage of EVs need not be increased, but they should use level 3 or 4 poison. They would do a lot of damage against monsters that way, but to players who carry around cure potions it would not be overly powerful.

<This I might be changed so it won't break when the bard leaves LOS, so it is more like the way it was before powerscrolls.>
This alone will make bards greatly more useful as they'll be able to run multiple fights. This should really help.


What do you think about letting a weakened form of Discordance or Peacemake effect bosses to make them more sought after for big fights?

Have you tried GMing provokation? It's actually a very difficult skill to raise. Although bardic skills arent effected by anti macro code, you still have to find monsters of the appropriate difficulty and provoke them. They inevitably kill each other and you have to move on and find more monsters. It would be very hard to set up a way to macro provoke unattended. You would need a tamer to get various levels of creatures, and you would need boats or a special setup in a house where you can provoke them and they won't be able to hit one another... as to which one actually takes more effort to GM I'm not sure, but just keep in mind that Provoke is by no means an easy skill to raise.

I don't think so, one could easily set a macro up to provke sheep and be gm over night. There is no difficulty check (at least there should not be one). I will look into it.

<This I might be changed so it won't break when the bard leaves LOS, so it is more like the way it was before powerscrolls.> This alone will make bards greatly more useful as they'll be able to run multiple fights. This should really help.

This is done for the provoking skill after next reboot.

What do you think about letting a weakened form of Discordance or Peacemake effect bosses to make them more sought after for big fights?

Ok provoke LOS has been removed, more slayer weapons will spawn and one of the high end boss monters is no longer bard immuned.

I also make a recommention that you try your bard on the Titans/Cyclops, they have always been great for bards.

Wow... I have a feeling I'm going to enjoy playing on this server for a long time to come with an admin that is so receptive to the players' feedback... thanks a lot.

By the way, I just macroed provoke overnight on two sheep. I made sure skills were marked down, and provoke was marked up. I didn't get any gains, and I'm only at 72 real skill. I don't know if it would be a good idea to make provoke that easy to GM though. Just FYI.

Taming is normally hard, but on this shard you can start controlling white wyrms in 2 hours, assuming you spend that time training taming. But anyone can be a tamer, so I see nothing unfair about it.

What I'd like to see is summon monsters have more of a use.

-Demons take 5 slots to control, thats more than a White Wyrm. Which means I can't summon a demon with a horse.

-Energy vortex is weaker than a blade spirit. (At least against other monsters)

And since we're on the subject of balance... archery blows on here. Would it be possible to allow shooting while running, with a penalty?

Archery is not only faster then OSI/ other runuo shards but you also have longer range then those shards.

I second Nilbog's suggestion. Since we're upgrading warriors and bards it's only fair that mages get a boost... I'd love to see elementals and demons actually be worth summoning. And he's right about Energy Vortexes being weaker than Blade Spirits!

this is the problem with ultima one group gets fixed the others feel left out back and forth back and forth

Do you have an issue with balancing or something? =/

a balance can never be reached too many people whine

"a balance can never be reached too many people whine"

Na, I'm just asking for features that OSI originally had.
Can't speak for anyone else though.