Sephiroth, his own man or a puppet?

Did he control himself? Did HE decide to destroy the planet? Or was Jenova(using the Jenova cells inside him) make him do all that he did?

His actions were not independent. Jenova was just to powerful for him to possibly fight against. He breaks away from her grasp at one point and at one point alone. When he kills Aeris and Cloud starts crying. He llooks down at Cloud and even though you can't tell as good as you culd've if he could actually talk, you can still conclude that from what he said, that he was somewhat sympathetic. Its only that one line, and then Jenova takes over his mind again.

But what do you think?

Your twisting thing as always and basing yourself on nothing.

Sephiroth chose his destiny !
Were ppl of Shinra controlled ? NO
And they were working for Shinra just like Sephiroth was working for Jenova.
They chose the path they BELEIVED IN !
He did it for Jenova and def. not cause he was controlled by Jenova !
Your asumming is just as bad as always.
What about Cloud, Hojo, Nanaki, Vincent, Lucrecia, Zack and members of SOLDIER.
Were they controlled by Jenova ? NO
Yet they all were injected whit Jenova cel !

Jenova was controlling Sephiroth ? Is PURE SPECULATION! We are never TOLD that Jenova control Sephiroth.
He does care for Jenova as a mother not as a puppet.

Edit:

As for when Sephiroth kill Areis the only thing i see his him pull up a little smile of satisfaction as he pull the blade out

So? In FF8 YOU ARE NEVER TOLD that Laguna is Squall's father. Yet it is a widely believed fact. Same for Sephiroth.

Wtf Laguna being Squall father ? Lol Laguna never had a kid. And thats something that you should know if you remember the story of ff8. What are you gonna come up whit next ?
Im starting your the kind of person who play games whit Walkthrough right next to you whitout knowing anything of the actual game.

Here is my take on Sephiroth.

He was an individual, he made his own decisions, but those decisions were influenced by Jenova's presence in his body. Just like the genes of your parents can influence the way your personality develops. The difference is that Sephiroth's mother was a psychotic, cosmic demi-god with a desire to destroy everything in existence. That kind of genetic structure is certainly going to provide more than a normal amount of "influence" for Jenova to wield over Sephiroth.

Let us also not forget the "reunion" theory. All of the former residents of Nibelheim, including Cloud, were injected with Mako and Jenova cells. Sephiroth showed an ability to not only influence their decisions, but to also control their actions consciously. If Sephiroth can do that to a bunch of people with a few Jenvoa cells in them, think of what Jenova could do to Sephiroth, considering the fact that half of his genetic structure is made of Jenova cells.

The counterpoint is that Jenvoa has lost a lot of her former power. Hence the reason she can't outright control someone as powerful as Sephiroth. One way or another, she was most certainly influencing his decisions, subtlely guiding him down a path of wanton destruction. He was making his own decisions in a specific manner, but Jenova was making the big, huge general decisions for him. He decided to use Meteor to injure the planet, all she wanted was for him to wreak havoc. Didn't matter to her how he did it.

Your first paragraph i agree it s exactly how it can go whit a mother/son relationship.

The reason of Sephiroth superiority isnt only cause Jenova isnt at full power.
But also because Sephiroth is the best of both side.

Here is more reason here on reason why he chose his own decisions http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...796#post328796

The only thing Jenova did was providing the way.

Wtf Laguna being Squall father ? Lol Laguna never had a kid. And thats something that you should know if you remember the story of ff8. What are you gonna come up whit next ?

Umm. Raine was pregnant when Laguna left for the war. Her son was Squall. Heck, even their names point to this fact, Rain over a lagoon forms a squall

Not to mention, if you go down to the little passenger room with all the seats, WHY Laguna is onboard with his crew; Kiros will say "You look alot like your mother". Then if you talk to Ward, he'll mumble and Kiros will translate "Its a good thing you don't look like your father." And if you paid attention, Squall's hair is slightly like Raine's.

They never come out and say it, but the evidence is stacked against your ridiculous case. This should prove above all, that you don't know anything about your games. Whereas, I am somewhat an expert. So keep your mouth shut about stuff you have NO CLUE about.

K-1, calm the hell down. You're taking a heated discussion into flame territory and that's not necessary. You two both need to cut this constant bickering out right the fuck now. If you're going to continue, do so in the Flame Forum. We need more activity in there anyway.

The only thing Jenova did was providing the way.

I disagree slightly. Here's the way I interpreted her actions: imagine Sephiroth at an intersection. The road that he is on splits in three other directions. One of the directions is towards "peace." Quitting Shinra, resolving his issues with Hojo and starting a new life. The second path is "indifference." He continues to live his life the way he has been since the day he was born. Nothing changes, and he doesn't let his newfound discovery about Jenova deter his present course. The third path is "destruction." He sets out to make the world suffer for lying to him.

Jenova's involvement in his reaction was to darken the first two paths. Make them hard to see, make them look uninviting and dangerous. She then also lit the third path, making it look like the easiest and most welcoming path of the three. Sephiroth made the decision on his own, but Jenova made it particularly difficult for him to decide otherwise.

That is how I always interpreted Jenova's involvement in the game. She (like Satan) makes the path of wickedness appear to be the more inviting and easy path to choose. While simultaneously distorting the other paths, making them look difficult and harsh.

If you check the link i added to the post http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...796#post328796
I explain why i say Sephiroth chose the path of destruction.

Thats not true. He was a boy crying for his mother. He knew he was diff. from other. And he found out they abused of HIS MOTHER !! Remember the experiment in the tube (those weird monster) ? Thats when he got mad and took Jenova out ! Tell me how would you feel if someone abused of your mother and would use her as a lab rat ? And what would you do if you had the power to make them pay ? Thats how it started.

oh and i forgot about the MAKO energy extracted.

That explanation doesn't make a ton of sense to me. He had no emotional connection to Jenova. He had no real ties to her at all, therefore, why would it anger him to learn that Shinra experimented on a deranged space monster?

My interpretation is that had Jenova truly been dead, he probably would have been pissed off about being lied to, but he wouldn't have become a deranged murderer. She manipulated and amplified his decision-making abilities, thereby guiding his actions in a very subtle and very general manner.

There was no way for her to manipulate his emotions unless he had certain emotions to manipulate. Hence the reason Sephiroth didn't freak out until after he learned the truth. Once he learned about Jenova, she used his birthing outrage and amplified it, manipulating these specific emotions that he never had before because he didn't know the truth.

There's no real way to determine the absolute truth, in any case. These topics were left to be ambiguous so that people would discuss them and discover their own version of the truth. Frankly, I don't find it terribly interesting (or logical) to think that Sephiroth became a psychotic killer with delusions of grandeur because he read a few top secret files. I find it a lot more complex and interesting to think that Sephiroth's rise to evil was a combined effort between his fragile subconscious and Jenova's manipulations.

On top of that, if Sephiroth was entirely responsible for his own violent changes, that would make Jenova a pretty pointless character in the game. If that's the case, then all she really is is a weird looking boss with some background plot attached to her. I find it more interesting to think that she had a more active role in his villainous deeds.

Well mostly cause no matter how deranged this monster is he still consider Jenova as his mother. The father was Hojo the mother was Jenova and the female scientist was nothing more then an incubator.

Like you said he only freaked out when he found out !
He found out they abused his real mother.
He found out they were abusing of the planet that he beleived should belong to Jenova.

Of course Jenova had some influence.
Just like any children get influenced by their own parents.
Like i was pointing Jenova brought the mean.
Sephiroth didnt care how it was done as long as he would get revenge+stop the ppl from abusing of the planet and survive.

I don't think he wanted Shinra to stop mining Mako at all. He didn't care that the planet was being injured. His entire plan was to cause a massive injury to the planet, and for himself to be at the center of it so he could absorb all of the planet's life energy. He wanted to be a god, and it would have required the near-death of the entire world to accomplish that.

Here some part of the script that explain many thing. It is Cloud who actualy lead Sephiroth to understand what he is.


The trigger to how he started to make him wonder more about himself.

Sephiroth: This is the reason for the malfunction. This part is broken.
Cloud, close the valve.

Cloud closed the valve.

Sephiroth: Why did it break...? ...now I see, Hojo. But, even doing
this, will never put you on the same level as Professor Gast. This is a
system that condenses and freezes the Mako energy... that is, when it's
working correctly. Now... what does Mako energy became when it's
further condensed?

Cloud: Uh, ummm...... Oh yeah! It becomes a Materia.

Sephiroth: Right, normally. But Hojo put something else in there.
...Take a look. Look through the window.

Cloud looked.

Cloud: Wh... what is this!?

Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered
with Mako. You're different from the others, but still human. But, what
are they? They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than
you.

Cloud: ...is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these
monsters. Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what
these monster's really are.

Cloud: Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different? H... hey,
Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: N...no...... ...Was I?

Sephiroth went sword crazy (what I'm trying to say is that he took his
Masamune and kept slashing things).

Sephiroth: ...Was I created this way too? Am I the same as all these
monsters......

Cloud: ...Sephiroth.

Sephiroth: You saw it! All of them... were humans...

Cloud: Humans!? No way!

Sephiroth: ...I've always felt since I was small... That I was
different from the others. Special, in some way. But... not like
this...


Sephiroth Studies

Sephiroth: (reading a book) ...an organism that was apparently dead,
was found in a 2000 year old geological stratum. Professor Gast named
that organism, Jenova... X Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova confirmed to be
an Ancient ...X Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova Project approved. The use
of Mako Reactor I approved for use... My mother's name is Jenova...
Jenova Project... Is this just a coincidence? Professor Gast... Why
didn't you tell me anything? ...Why did you die?


He explain some to Cloud

Cloud left as Sephiroth kept on reading books. Later as Cloud gets up
from the bed, he goes down to the basement.

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Who is it!? Hmph... traitor.

Cloud: Traitor?

Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was a itinerant
race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on... At the
end of their harsh, hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and
supreme happiness. But, those who stopped their migrations built
shelters and elected to lead an easier life. They took that which the
Cetra and the planet had made without giving back one whit in return!
Those are your ancestors.

Cloud: Sephiroth...

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors
escaped... They survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by
sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your ancestors continued to
increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports.

Cloud: What does that have to do with you?

Sephiroth: Don't you get it? An Ancient named Jenova was found in the
geological stratum of 2000 years ago. The Jenova Project. The Jenova
Project wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients......
no, the Cetra! ...I am the one that was produced.

Cloud: Pr...produced!?

Sephiroth: Yes. Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius
scientist, produced me.

Cloud: How...how did he...? Se...Sephiroth?

Sephiroth: Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother.

Later as Cloud steps outside of the Shinra Mansion, the place is
burning.


When he find Jenova

Sephiroth: Mother, let's take this planet back together. I've thought
of a great idea. Let's go to the Promised Land.

Cloud: Sephiroth... My family! My hometown! How could you do this to
them!?

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... They've come again, mother. With her
superior power, knowledge, and magic, Mother was destined to become the
ruler of the Planet.

We watch a movie of Sephiroth and his lines.

Sephiroth: But they... Those worthless creatures are stealing the
Planet from Mother. But now I'm here with you so don't worry.

He took off Jenova.

Cloud: What about MY sadness!? My family... friends... The sadness of
having my hometown taken away from me!? It's the same as your sadness!

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha... my sadness? What do I have to be sad about? I
am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this Planet.
I have orders to take this planet back from you stupid people for the
Cetra. What am I supposed to be sad about?



So from actualy refreshing my mrmory by checking the script of Final Fantasy 7 i just noticed how unimportant Jenova really is. And how he decided what he would do even before he even seen Jenova

A) He doesn't need to see Jenova in order to be influenced by her. It's not like she's whispering things like "destroy the planet" in his ear. It's more subtle than that. She manipulates him in a way that is nearly impossible for him to identify. Like telepathically. Most likely, he thought that absolutely everything he did was his decision. I simply don't see that as being true. He made independant decisions, but they were guided by Jenova's influence.

B) If Jenova actually was meaningless, and I'm wrong about all of this, then Sephiroth is a much lamer villain than I originally thought. At least with Jenova's meddling there was some logical explanation for him going from being a hero to a murderous psychopath in less than 24 hours. If Sephiroth's transformation from hero to villain was all his doing, then that is some seriously shitty writing, dude. He throws away all notions of nobility and rationale all because he wasn't entirely human? That's just lame, and really poorly thought out. At least with the "Jenova Interference" theory he has a reasonable explanation for his actions. With the "Independant Sephiroth" theory, all he's doing is throwing a giant temper tantrum for no good reason.

Well Sephiroth isnt evil.
He is and stayed a soldier !
He followed the path he beleived in.
He was a Cetra.
His reason ?

Cloud: Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different? H... hey,
Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: N...no...... ...Was I?

Sephiroth went sword crazy (what I'm trying to say is that he took his
Masamune and kept slashing things).

He his disturbed already by the fact he could have been a lied too .

He go find out about himself. Not because of Jenova but because of what Cloud brought up !
Refer to Sephiroth Studies

He called Cloud a traitor and here is why !

They took that which the
Cetra and the planet had made without giving back one whit in return!
Those are your ancestors.
Refer to He explain some to Cloud


He doesnt see the others now as ppl but nothing more then Creature.
Now he want to avenge his ppl the Cetra !
His life is the chance to set thing the way they were suposed to be !

Refer to When he find Jenova



Note: When i say "Refer to ???" it s from my last post. And the ??? will be in Bold + Italic in my last post too making it easy to spot.

Now he want to avenge his ppl the Cetra ! His life is the chance to set thing the way they were suposed to be !

Once again, he just learned that he was a Cetra. He has no emotional involvement with them whatsoever, so his instant reaction of "I will kill everyone in the world!" is bogus.

I have Russian in me. I learned this a few years ago. I didn't freak out and start killing people and committing arson because Stalin murdered a couple million of my distant relatives decades ago. The idea of Sephiroth going from "honorable hero" to "murderous supervillain" by himself, with no help from Jenova at all, in the span of 24 hours, for those reasons is retarded.

I'll have to agree with Raziel on this one Kuja.

I have Russian in me. I learned this a few years ago. I didn't freak out and start killing people and committing arson because Stalin murdered a couple million of my distant relatives decades ago. The idea of Sephiroth going from "honorable hero" to "murderous supervillain" by himself, with no help from Jenova at all, in the span of 24 hours, for those reasons is retarded.

How did you find out ? (he was already going crazy thinking he was the same thing as one of those creature in the tube)
Were you lied your whole life about it or was it just not important enought to mention ?(unlike sephiroth)
Did ppl steal planet from your ppl ? No
Did ppl abuse of your mother ? No
Did the planet abuse of your ppl ? No
Your ppl are dead ? No many were killed BUT SEPHIROTH RACE WAS EXTINGUISHED !

It s much diff. then your "oh i have a little of russian blood.
Some ppl were killed. No big."

I'm sorry for this being off topic but I've just gotta say something. Kuja, can you please try to proofread your posts before you post them? It's gotten worse and worse and now it's to the point where I can barely understand what you're trying to say. This isn't meant to be a flame or anything, just a request.