OMG WTF BBQ (a discussion of economics between various frontal lobes)

So are you economically leftist or rightist? Marxist? Reagan....ist? DO TELL!

When studying Marxism over the last 3 months, its critiques, and its supports.... I have discovered that much of what Marx says is true. While I will not get into it, I will stifle a very common attack at the supposed Marxist ways. People that say "Marxism is GREAT in theory, but (here they heave a long sigh).... it can never work" Quite basically, this is not possible to know. Your judgements have been framed in a capitalistic society's influence. What this means, is that your conditioning to be chiefly competitive rather then inclined to communal well being is hindering you from seeing the true possibilities of Marxism.

Marx held a belief in Dialectical Materialism, a concept of how new economic systems come about. A neccesary step along the process of many economic changes on the way to communism is capitalism. Since the countries that have had communism so far in the world have never had a true capitalist system, we simply can not know if the system is "great but will never work".

What drives the change? Well, class struggle. In the final change into communism (after capitalism), classes will have become extinct. If that would be the case, then there would be nothing more to drive the change to new economic systems. We will be left with the final product.

Yes, I am slowly becoming a Marxist, however I am still going to participate in the economy in very capitalistic ways. Why? Well as Marx would say, the system is flawed, and when the system is driven further and further, the change will naturally occur. Self proclaimed anarchaic communists? They are okay I guess if you want to be a pseudo-rebellious teenager, however I am just interested in a prediction of what could be in store for the future of the world. So friends, true communism like the world has never seen could be coming to an America near you! I would say be prepared, but hell, this is not going to happen in our life time.

Any thoughts at all?

Bleh, people should earn their merits.

Well, it could be reasonably argued that in the current state of America (capitalism), people don't earn their merits.

while you can argue, people generally do earn their merits. That is the idea of capitalism. Something that would be impossible as a Marxist.

So are you economically leftist or rightist? Marxist? Reagan....ist? DO TELL! When studying Marxism over the last 3 months, its critiques, and its supports.... I have discovered that much of what Marx says is true. While I will not get into it, I will stifle a very common attack at the supposed Marxist ways. People that say "Marxism is GREAT in theory, but (here they heave a long sigh).... it can never work" Quite basically, this is not possible to know. Your judgements have been framed in a capitalistic society's influence. What this means, is that your conditioning to be chiefly competitive rather then inclined to communal well being is hindering you from seeing the true possibilities of Marxism. Marx held a belief in Dialectical Materialism, a concept of how new economic systems come about. A neccesary step along the process of many economic changes on the way to communism is capitalism. Since the countries that have had communism so far in the world have never had a true capitalist system, we simply can not know if the system is "great but will never work". What drives the change? Well, class struggle. In the final change into communism (after capitalism), classes will have become extinct. If that would be the case, then there would be nothing more to drive the change to new economic systems. We will be left with the final product. Yes, I am slowly becoming a Marxist, however I am still going to participate in the economy in very capitalistic ways. Why? Well as Marx would say, the system is flawed, and when the system is driven further and further, the change will naturally occur. Self proclaimed anarchaic communists? They are okay I guess if you want to be a pseudo-rebellious teenager, however I am just interested in a prediction of what could be in store for the future of the world. So friends, true communism like the world has never seen could be coming to an America near you! I would say be prepared, but hell, this is not going to happen in our life time. Any thoughts at all?

I find that a very intelligent post, Penny. I don't know too much about marxism other than what everyone knows, so I may be wrong on certain points. I will say, however, that my economic views lean left. I think that the idea of Marxism is good. I am also one of those people who thinks that in practice it would not work, as evinced by the communist nations that we have seen over the last century. One could argue that the leaders of these communist nations were corrput and dictatorial, and they would have a valid point. Nevertheless, I think that the only way to implement a communist type of economic system without anarchy breaking loose is through a very involved, almost tyrannical government, for the simple reason that communism goes against human nature. We are a very competitive species, and the idea of sharing even simple things must be instilled into our minds from a very young age, otherwise we are extremely posessive about everything. Communism is so counterintuitive to us that I belive we would rebel unless we had a very strict, guiding government. Also, throughout the history of man, there has always been a hierarchical socioeconomic structure. Abolishing this structure, is once again, against human nature. What the repercussions of abolishing the hiearchical society would be, I don't know, but I don't think it would fly too well.

while you can argue, people generally do earn their merits. That is the idea of capitalism. Something that would be impossible as a Marxist.

That's all very opinionated. What I consider earning merit may not be what you consider it.

For the most part I feel the exact same way Penny. Americans don't realized they have been conditioned just as much as Marxists ever were.

I find that a very intelligent post, Penny. I don't know too much about marxism other than what everyone knows, so I may be wrong on certain points. I will say, however, that my economic views lean left. I think that the idea of Marxism is good. I am also one of those people who thinks that in practice it would not work, as evinced by the communist nations that we have seen over the last century. One could argue that the leaders of these communist nations were corrput and dictatorial, and they would have a valid point. Nevertheless, I think that the only way to implement a communist type of economic system without anarchy breaking loose is through a very involved, almost tyrannical government, for the simple reason that communism goes against human nature. We are a very competitive species, and the idea of sharing even simple things must be instilled into our minds from a very young age, otherwise we are extremely posessive about everything. Communism is so counterintuitive to us that I belive we would rebel unless we had a very strict, guiding government. Also, throughout the history of man, there has always been a hierarchical socioeconomic structure. Abolishing this structure, is once again, against human nature. What the repercussions of abolishing the hiearchical society would be, I don't know, but I don't think it would fly too well.

Yeah, well Marxism doesn't deal with things "flying well". I see your objections, and they are understandable and easily defendable. However, Marx speaks to that. This is Marx talking, not me, but he belives that there is no human nature, and that everything we do in the high brain (so I'm not considering sex drive, need for food, water, etc) is all the way that you are nurtured.

When saying that it wouldn't fly, and people would object, that's because you are seeing it as the attempts at communism that governments have tried. In a true Marxist system, there is no objection to it. It doesn't come from the government forcing it on the people. It is just another economic phase change, one of the loops. While going through the loop, there are more and more small changes called quantitative changes. In the "loop" of capitalism, for instance, a quantitative change would be in more people falling from the upper class into the lower class, and more and more workers getting exploited (yes workers are exploited in Capitalism, they are only worth their human labor because the upper class expropriates their means of production rendering them useless except for their ability to work). Then, when "enough is enough" of the old system, there is a "qualitative" change that marks the begining of a new loop. Like I said, with class struggle driving that loop, it must stop at communism. Why? Well, there are no classes! There is a WHOLE lot of depth to what Marx is saying, so much that it is impossible to describe in a post .

Honestly, MJ, you would REALLY enjoy reading Das Kapital, one of Marx's works. I recommend getting this book. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...270517-3139855

It's an easy read, since you probably don't want to read the large, overly wordy Das Kapital. I strongly urge you to buy this, it will open up some great new windows of thought for you. This book is entertaining and intelligent (it has a comic running through it describing whats on each page as well, they are very smart comics and are fun to read and will make clearer the Marxist thought that you are enjoying on each page).

Good day!

Yes that is the idea of capitalism, but thats precisely why it is flawed. No one starts on a level playing ground, so how is the money you make directly proportional, or proportional at all to the ammount of hard work you put into the equation? The little man is SCREWED in capitalism. Sure, when the system came about, it was all good. But now there's always someone getting a dick in the ass.

You are looking at it from a perspective that is caged within capitalism. This is okay with me, but I think that you should try and look from another perspective. Money, capital accumulation, commodities are all just fetishes of capitalism. Even you see it that some people should get screwed over because they can't make as much money as another person. How does this make sense? Why is that fair? Is this system really the best there is? Just open up your mind to some new thoughts. Working hard to earn merits is just a synonym for being driven by greed. Is that healthy?


Edit- This was in response to sheerx if you couldn't tell.

This is Marx talking, not me, but he belives that there is no human nature, and that everything we do in the high brain (so I'm not considering sex drive, need for food, water, etc) is all the way that you are nurtured.

If this is true, then Marx would have a valid point. I have a hard time believing that, though. Looking at it from a biological standpoint, it appears that there are certain inherent instincts ("natures"), includins social instincts, in every animal, so I don't see why the same principle wouldn't apply to us. I don't know, I could be wrong, I just have a hard time believing that there aren't social instincts that humans live by. What do you think?

Honestly, MJ, you would REALLY enjoy reading Das Kapital, one of Marx's works. I recommend getting this book. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...270517-3139855

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the link.

Working hard to earn merits is just a synonym for being driven by greed. Is that healthy?

Is it healthy NOT to want to do something more with your life? You talk about people being stuck becuase of what their life has given them. (Poor being poor, Rich being rich.) What about equality? Doesn't that mean you are stuck being on the smae level as anyone else? Who wants to go through their life not being able to achieve anything special?

Is it healthy NOT to want to do something more with your life? You talk about people being stuck becuase of what their life has given them. (Poor being poor, Rich being rich.) What about equality? Doesn't that mean you are stuck being on the smae level as anyone else? Who wants to go through their life not being able to achieve anything special?

Of course, you may be seeing it like that since you were raised in a capitalist system where that ambition you mentioned above is strongly advocated. What Penny is trying to say, I believe, is that if you were born in a communist society that you may not see it that way. Equality for all doesn't really sound like a bad deal to me.

Equality for all is bullshit.

Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual. - Drizzt Do'Urden

Equality for all is bullshit.

Why do you say that?

The whole point is that the money is something that takes on a life of its own and now defines you and everything you do. This is a perfect example, you are gauging worth as earning money. You can do something special, or in other words further your growth as a human being and seek fulfillment in the arts, in the body, or in the mind, whatever you want. Just beacuse you can't earn more money then anyone else does not mean you can't enrich your life.

If this is true, then Marx would have a valid point. I have a hard time believing that, though. Looking at it from a biological standpoint, it appears that there are certain inherent instincts ("natures"), includins social instincts, in every animal, so I don't see why the same principle wouldn't apply to us. I don't know, I could be wrong, I just have a hard time believing that there aren't social instincts that humans live by. What do you think?

Well, personally, I'm not quite sure what I believe. I've been taking psychology courses at the same time as I've been studying Marxism, so it's pretty interesting. I don't really know if it's fair to say that our actions socially are natural. There may be natural urges behind them, however if placed into a different social structure would they not differ? Take for example the natural urge to reproduce, which can speak to alot of capitalist motivations (get rich, get famous, get recognition socially so you can ultimately reproduce... this is very Freudian and slightly shaky). I mean, men don't knock women over the head with a club and take them to their den anymore. See what I mean? As things change, our natural instincts could still be there but they would change.

Really the bottom line is.... how can human nature apply to something that is man made.

You're welcome for the link btw, it is an outstanding read.

I'm going to say what everyone says in such a topic.

Without incentives, why the fuck SHOULD I work?

The incentives wouldn't just be cash. It'd be an environment where the whole labor process was understood from a different point of view. It is strictly illogical to apply capitalist normalities to true communism (the kind that comes about from the many loops. the kind we havent seen yet).

If I get the same life treatment as someone who is working 2x as hard as me? I'd be like fuck yea, and not like, o shit I better catch up.

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the link.

Translation:

I have no interest in reading this, but I don't want to offend you so I'll say thanks anyway.