Do you Believe?

[Jamesadin]

Do you believe in God? Reply with what you think.

[Adrenachrome]

i dont
cant really explain with a keyboard

but uhh
i cant make myself believe that theres
some powerful being watching over everything

[WetWired]

Does He not make His presence known in the world around us? Jesus has certainly made me aware of His presence in my life. But for the simplest argument of whether there is any god, the laws of physics state that order comes out of chaos only when external energy is introduced into a system--in other words, perhaps there was a "big bang", but even so, it was God that caused it and who willed all the order that exists into being.

[DKWicked]

thats a negative........for many reasons

[JRwakebord]

i dont

[Jamesadin]

Originally posted by WetWired
Does He not make His presence known in the world around us? Jesus has certainly made me aware of His presence in my life. But for the simplest argument of whether there is any god, the laws of physics state that order comes out of chaos only when external energy is introduced into a system--in other words, perhaps there was a "big bang", but even so, it was God that caused it and who willed all the order that exists into being.

I totally agree..

[Hades-Knight]

since the begining of the human race humans have thought of a superior being, or a god to explaint heir presence in the universe, but all there is to know is too much for our little heads :)

[Demosthenes]

i dont...i will post my entire opinion on this thread later cuz i got a lot 2 say on this subject.

[JohnnyTAE]

you are all sacreligous :p, God why not I belive in grav and I never seen him before....

[Raziel]

I most certainly believe in God. I refuse to believe that the human race along with all other life on this planet was an accident.

[Grav]

Originally posted by JohnnyTAE
you are all sacreligous :p, God why not I belive in grav and I never seen him before....


SILENCE, HEATEN!

YOU SHALT NOT SPEAK VAINLY IN THE NAME OF YOUR LORD

[Grav]

Originally posted by Raziel
I most certainly believe in God. I refuse to believe that the human race along with all other life on this planet was an accident.


I believe in evolution over creation, unless one day we find out that there is no other intelligent life.. maybe we are a Beta Version :(

[DKWicked]

probably be closer to an alpha, really

[Hades-Knight]

WHat do you think? we come from monkeys or from Adan and Eve?

i think from monkeys

[Demosthenes]

what reason do we have to believe in god. The theory of evolution we have reasonable amount of evidence to back it up but what would lead you to believe in god? We have nearly no proof as to god exists. I dont mean to offend anyone but personally I believe that religion was made thousands of years ago buy people in power who needed a way to control the people they led. It got popular and spread and so did religion. As time passedreligions evolved and changed...that is why we have so many different religions.

You know how god claims he is the "only one". Then why is it when a christian man has a near death experience he will say something like I saw jesus christ, or I saw heave and hell and a hindu say I saw rama or I saw who my mother was about to be in the next life???

[Strider Fury]

i'll bet my ass that more than half of the people who voted for 'yes' are 'just incase', and i find that very sickening. and btw, james, your very own question is flawed. i dont believe in God; i choose to believe in myself.

[Hades-Knight]

i saw allah!!!!!!!!

[Adrenachrome]

Strider i agree 100% the whole concept in "God" contradicts itself all throughout the Holy Bible
yea i read it and still didnt believe a word

but i agree somewhat with WetWired
i do beleive in Jesus but not as the son of God
as a man who knew a great deal about medicine and other things.
And was misstook for A gods son.

THis is very hard to explain
But there could be another explaination for the Adam& Eve story

for the smart people around

Aliens......
What if Adam&Eve were put here by the human race (or whatever they called it) Because of the destruction of their own planet.
And given the beliefs that are in the bible in order to prevent the destruction of this world...

i would beleive that before a magical being or whatever that creates all and with heaven and hell and all that bullshit.
also there are way too many different religions for any one of them to be true.

hmm....

[Demosthenes]

i dont believe we were put here by a magical being. B/c if u think a/b it for a sec then where did that magical being come from. It wouldn't make sense. I think that the big bang was the creation of the universe but that story leaves behind a whole set of questions itself. Where and how did it get so dense...it doesn't make sense.

[Adrenachrome]

most of life doesnt make sense i think thats why people came up with religion
to explain things

no offense

but i think people who believe in a god are simple minded....

[MiNi_MaX]

I believe in myself, physics, chemistry and biology.... Gods are bullshit.

I think religion was build by a really smart guy to exploits peoples so they can give money, food and tell him their secrets...
And after another smart guy understood that and made another religion etc..

[Adrenachrome]

wow this guy came outta no where and posted 1 post and it was about god........

[quikspy67]

I belive in god

[Strider Fury]

lets face it; the world is too fucked up to be able to put all of your faith in believing in God. remember that guy faking the shit bout healing people and was caught? like i've said to Raziel before, I do not choose to believe in God, but I live each day with morals and rightously.

[Silverjinx18]

I believe in God...God is in every way possible y I'm hear right now, y I get up in the morning, and y I push so hard everyday to make my goals possible...God is y I still put hope into sep. 11, God helps me to believe everything will be better. It is his voice I hear everytime something is wrong because he tells me it will be ok...You can not see God,True, but you can feel him and for that we should be greatfull, also you can see his presious blessings sent to us. It doesn't kill you to go to church (and i'm not telling ppl they have to) but it may kill you not to...

[MiNi_MaX]

Adrenachrome: I agree that's not a great subject to enter a forum community ;P But that was the first thread I read in that forum.

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
I believe in God...God is in every way possible y I'm hear right now, y I get up in the morning, and y I push so hard everyday to make my goals possible...God is y I still put hope into sep. 11, God helps me to believe everything will be better. It is his voice I hear everytime something is wrong because he tells me it will be ok...You can not see God,True, but you can feel him and for that we should be greatfull, also you can see his presious blessings sent to us. It doesn't kill you to go to church (and i'm not telling ppl they have to) but it may kill you not to...

why would u believe in god though. What proof do u have. Why do u think "god" put us here. I would believe if there was some proof but i cannot blindly follow everything and base all my decisions around a belief.

[Xenn]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd


why would u believe in god though. What proof do u have. Why do u think "god" put us here. I would believe if there was some proof but i cannot blindly follow everything and base all my decisions around a belief.

Personal experience

[Raziel]

I believe in both creation and evolution. I don't believe man just appeared on Earth in the blink of an eye, I believe it was a gradual process. But what takes millions of years on Earth may only be a matter of seconds in God's perception.

[Hades-Knight]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
It is his voice I hear everytime something is wrong because he tells me it will be ok.

stop smoking weed

[tacoX]

/me is a proud god believer

[Xenn]

What I don't like are those people who believe in God but not hell.. it's like their trying to set themselves up for everything to be perfect :rolleyes:

[kaos]

iam the opposite. i believe in chaos and that satan is real. and he will proudly make me one of his hellish soldiers of doom after i prove myself...either that or i just play too much d2...

[Jamesadin]

Much too much DII. It is quite the opposite actually.

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Xenn
What I don't like are those people who believe in God but not hell.. it's like their trying to set themselves up for everything to be perfect :rolleyes:


if ur saying it is right 2 believe in god then i think that it is also allright not 2 believe in satan. Afterall "god" is the image of perfection.

[kaos]

wat do u mean the opposite. you mean i dont play ENOUGH d2?

[Adrenachrome]

Originally posted by MiNi_MaX
Adrenachrome: I agree that's not a great subject to enter a forum community ;P But that was the first thread I read in that forum.
and the only one you have posted in....

[Adrenachrome]

Originally posted by Adrenachrome


no offense

but i think people who believe in a god are simple minded....

[VComegasin]

I believe, you know why? Think about it, there is NO way everything just "BANG" and became alive, it's just impossible. The human body system is also very complicated, I don't think a small "evolution" can let a CELL became "HUMAN" anccestor! I believe in god, and I think that is something I can count on

[Demosthenes]

well if the whole world didn't just "BANG" and become alive then how did god just be there. He would've just "BANG" and been there.

[Jamesadin]

That is something we will figure out later

[Raziel]

He was always there.

[Demosthenes]

so ur saying that we couldn't have just "poofed" and been here and he could? Why could we not have just "poofed" and been here?

[Raziel]

No, I'm saying that God never "appeared." He was ALWAYS THERE. He exists outside of time, therefore he had no "beginning."

[Demosthenes]

Nothing can exist outside time, and nothing can exist outside space. To me this topic is faith vs logic. If u think about it that statement that god was always here makes no sense. Because time has no beginning or end, space has no beginning or end...it makes no logical sense that god would live outside the universe. And religion is changing all the time. It was said that heaven was up in the clouds. Now ur making it seem as if god were 2 exist in some completely different world where math and science make no sense because it is impossilble for nething, spiritually or physically, to exist outside of time.

[Raziel]

How can you possibly begin to prove that opinion? I can't prove that God exists, but you most certainly cannot prove that he doesn't. You can't even prove that you're actually sitting in front of your computer. For all you know, you're a fish dreaming that you're a dude sitting in front of a computer. Don't even begin to say "it's impossible for anything to exist outside of time" when you aren't even capapble of proving your own existence inside time.

[Demosthenes]

but i am capable of proving my own existence inside time. If i was a fish dreaming this then I wouldn't be able to post on this forum. Time, as described by science, has no beginning and no end, so as if u r going 2 take the litteral deffinition of time it is impossible to have something outside that. And it is a pretty far-fetched idea that I would be a fish dreaming that I am me sitting in front of my computer. U can't say that I do not exist. I can thing, eat, walk, talk, and do other activities. Everything in this world exits for the smallest particles of the atom to the whole universe and time itself.

[Raziel]

This is like trying to explain quantum physics to a four year old. If you want me to make it easy for you, I'll use an analogy. It's a fucking stupid analogy, but it serves my purpose.

Have you seen The Matrix? I imagine you have, so follow me here. Just because you can touch the things in front of you, or eat the food in your refigerator that doesn't make those objects real. Everything you experience in everyday life could be nothing more than a dream. Much like The Matrix...(God, I hate using this ridiculous analogy).

The point is this. Just becuase you say you exist, doesn't mean you exist. Just because you believe you are really here, doesn't actually mean you are really here. It could all be in your head. That's where faith comes in. If you don't believe in God because there is no "proof", then technically you can't believe in anything. Including your own existence.

[Medieval Bob]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
but i am capable of proving my own existence inside time.

We're all proud that you can "prove" that you exist. This topic here, however, is not about whether we exist or not.

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
so as if u r going 2 take the litteral deffinition of time it is impossible to have something outside that.

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
Nothing can exist outside time, and nothing can exist outside space.

Dictionary.com defines time, as you refer to it, as:
"A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future."

Have you been outside the time continuum and looked around? Hrm.. probably not. How can you, a simple human with a simple mind, possibly be able to prove, or even know, what can or cannot exist outside of a dimension that simple-minded humans define as all encompasing?

[Hades-Knight]

if god was always with you, how could he be with everyone? lol

[Medieval Bob]

Cuz he's 1337

Also, if you think of it, since God may be viewed as being outside of time, he doesn't have to follow the laws we set forth for time. He could spend as much "time" with one individual as he wanted and still have enough "time" to be with as many others he wants to in the same --period of time--.

[Raziel]

I think it's "time" for me to get some food.

Sorry, Bob. I had to do it.

[Medieval Bob]

I used the quotes and dashes to show the different meanings of time I was using.

[Raziel]

I know, I know. My "Flame Instincts" (or Fighty Sense, you might call it! Get it? Like "Spidey Sense"? Ugh...nevermind) commanded me to take the opportunity to mock you. I am powerless against the pull of the almighty "inadvertent set-up."

But, to get back on topic. I completely agree with you, Bob. Good form, good form!

[Jamesadin]

Originally posted by Knight-Rider
if god was always with you, how could he be with everyone? lol

Becuase he is omnicent.

[Adrenachrome]

seems like there is alot of ppl arguing about this

i think Jamesadin wanted thoughts and opinions and who believes and shit
everyone has posted an opinion here no one said God CANT exist only that they dont believe he exists

[Doofus_AW]

>Believer<

To deep a subject to elaborate on.....

[Demosthenes]

raziel i dont want u 2 take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to convince ne1 here to being atheist or nething and im not saying ne1 is wrong here...in fact i would like to turn into a believer because i would be able 2 have something 2 fall back on in hard times but it's kind of har 2 believe in the matrix-like thing u had stated earlier or that nething can exist outside time or space. I'm sorry it's just the way i am. If it doesn't make logical sense than i have a hard time believing it. I', not trying 2 say nething against ne1s beliefs so plz dont take me the wrong way.

[VComegasin]

mjordan2nd? Do you believe that I say there is god, do you want me to prove it?

[Demosthenes]

well if u can prove it plz do.

[Jamesadin]

Read the Bible, thats all I have to say.

[VComegasin]

k.......mjordan2nd

Do you have a great-grandfather?

[Demosthenes]

yes i do

[VComegasin]

I don't believe you, prove it.....well, even if you have picture, I still won't believe you, because how do I know if that is your real great grandfather?

[Medieval Bob]

I think the bastard doesn't have a great grandfather.

[VComegasin]

Medieval Bob...sorry, that was not my point! By the thing is...let him talk. lol

[Adrenachrome]

dont try to prove god exists or doesnt thats not possible
you can talk about reading the bible adn all that all day
i still wont believe
in fact.. i believed in god less after i read it....

[Doofus_AW]

Every persons search for God is a very personal and different experience.
When I was 20 I believed in selling Cocaine and banging cheap women and drinking expensive liquor and I strongly doubted the existence of God as he had little to offer me at that time. Now that Im a little older and have experienced more (and survived my previous beliefs lol) I do believe that we all have a higher purpose. If you asked everyone who voted no on this poll in ten years who knows what they would say? Ask them after the birth of their first child! After being married for 20 years! On the other hand ask everyone who voted yes and you could also get completely different results. I knew a girl who was a faithful catholic for years and years who lost a cousin to a senseless drunk driving accident and she now professes to believe in no God at all.

God reaches different people in different ways and I wont go into my personal awakening. I am not a born again christian or even a regular church goer but I feel in my heart that theres something bigger then me out there.

Theres a great little book called "Inferno" by...... uhhhhhhh sheesh Niven or Pournelle I always get em mixed up that is a sci-fi update of Dantes Inferno. It asks some good questions about why God would keep a private torture chamber called hell and lots of other modern updates on sins and morality. it raised more questions in my mind then the Bible ever did.

Doofus :)

[Silverjinx18]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd


why would u believe in god though. What proof do u have. Why do u think "god" put us here. I would believe if there was some proof but i cannot blindly follow everything and base all my decisions around a belief.

I have read this amazing book...IT'S CALLED THE BIBLE...you know the one w/ the ppl who saw Jesus and spoke to God and yeah all that...

[Jamesadin]

Most of you people would like the book of Revalations, and Exodus. (Revalations is at the back of the Bible, and Exodus is near the front)

[Adrenachrome]

i have read probly 90% of the bible i understand what it is about

my post earlier i told you it contradicts itself alot i have an example but not very specific:

The story of David and Goliath
David kills Goliath

later on in the book.....

someone else sposidly killed goliath im sorry i forgot the names of the verses
but there are many many contradictions in the bible

[Raziel]

The bible was written by a bunch of humans, so obviously they're gonna screw the story up all over the place. If I want to hear the accurate history of the Christian religion, I'll wait until I'm in Heaven and hear about it from someone who has the facts straight.

[Adrenachrome]

VERY good point Raz

[Shpook]

Ok, here's the way I look at things...

Religion is a crock of shit. It's too easy to give people something to believe in, write a book, and become rich and famous... As for God, I will say there is A God. There is a god as there is a heaven and a hell... within you. No one can say who God is, because he is who you make him. Just like no one can say what heaven and hell is, because they are what you make of them. This whole Catholicism and Christianity religion crap is bullshit(sorry if i offend someone) How can you sit there and let someone tell you what to believe? Ex: I walk up to you on the street, not knowing you. I tell you if you follow me wherever I go, I'll give you the continent of Africa. Would you believe me? But would you believe it if a High Priest told you? It's all just manipulation, something to keep people en masse from going against their wills.
Now, I'm not saying all religion is bullshit, but most mass religion seems funny to me, religion should be more personal faith, not faith in a cross or faith in a statue.

As for the whole creation vs. evolution thing... who knows? For someone biased towards science, of course evolution is easy to believe. But whose to say whose right? None of us were there, and we can't travel in time yet. If a scientist finds out creation is really what happened, do you think he'd make it public? If a priest found out that evolution is the way tables turned, do you think he'd let everyone know and possibly cause chaos? That's why I'll just believe what I see, for myself.

Wow, I really rambled.... lol

PostScript: I just want to clarify that I'm not saying anyone here is wrong, this is my personal opinion. I think that if what you believe in makes you at ease with yourself and thats what you truly believe, than that is how it is for YOU.

[Silverjinx18]

Originally posted by Adrenachrome
i have read probly 90% of the bible i understand what it is about

my post earlier i told you it contradicts itself alot i have an example but not very specific:

The story of David and Goliath
David kills Goliath

later on in the book.....

someone else sposidly killed goliath im sorry i forgot the names of the verses
but there are many many contradictions in the bible

ok here's my point on this...I've heard things like this before and I've simply said that there are many a name in "Bible times" world and in that...there were many John's, James, and Peter's...as there are many Brads,Chris's,and Stevens today....could there have been more goliath's?

[Raziel]

Good point, Silverjinx. As I recall, there are quite a few "Saul's" in the Bible as well.

[Jamesadin]

Yes, all those names were used quite frequently, and all of our anmes derive from those names. Jesus goes to Jeshna, which goes to Joshua. So Goliath could be Greg or something like that today.

[Demosthenes]

Personally I think that all of this religion was made up 1000's of years ago...as i said earlier....as a political movement. I mean look at ireland...it is so divided because of religion...and they are all christians. Now as some of you said earlier...I agree that not everything is under the control of humans and there is a lot of stuff we can't explain YET. How was the universe started. If you believe in the big bang how did all that density get there in the first place. If you want to collectively define all of that as god than yes I will agree with you but I do not believe in a supernatural being or a heaven or hell or an afterlife for that matter. Religion is good for peace of mind I believe, and 1000's of years ago fear of a supernatural power like a god would keep people in line.

Also to those of you that are debating creation vs. evolution: Personally I believe in evolution because the theory is based on fact and careful observation. I've done a little bit of research and Darwin was a huge believer in the bible. I haven't read the bible myself but from what ive read the orginal Theory of Evolution does not disregard the bible. It actually goes along with it. That is just what i have read though, I have not read the complete theory of evolution nor have I completely read the bible.

[Jamesadin]

You should read some of it, quite interesting actually.

[Silverjinx18]

I have thought that once...that it was all made up...but then when you read the Bible and wonder about it's coming to this world and what not I think it was impossable for it not to be made up...I mean when you have a town of ppl looking at Jesus rise into heaven...come on...?
And when you talk about the big bang I was thinking about that last night. I have decided to read at least one chapter from the Bible a night now. Well last night I read chapter one of the first book...when God made earth I figure that maybe the big bang fits in with that...God made the earth=BIG BANG=earth...??understand?

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
God made the earth=BIG BANG=earth...??understand?

I have also thought that perhaps something like this was possible but everything has 2 start somewhere. All the microscopic but immense density which was out universe as stated by the big bang theory must've started somewhere. But if god made that then what made god??? If you say that god has magically always just been there that would make nor more sense then just saying that our whole universe was just there. It's all very confusing to me and honestly I dont know what to think but the reason I don't believe in a supernatural being is that it is 1/unlimited posibilities.

[Silverjinx18]

Yes I understand that, but God says we will know in due time...which seems to be soon...i dunno...I just pray you find the answer when you need to...i'm not trying to push anything on anyone...just try'n to do my job as a christian and hope i'm not thought of a lesser person for doing so :) I just don't see how someone could go through life and go through our generation and not beleave that there is a God because of what is happening in the world today...

[Jamesadin]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
and hope i'm not thought of a lesser person for doing so :)

Dont worry about it :) Probably 30% of Zelaron are Christians, including me.

[Rurouni Storm]

#3. I am an offical Apostle of the Church of the Apathetic Agnostic.

We simply believe that there is no real way for humans to know whether or not God exists.

[Silverjinx18]

yeah, but do you expect to go to heaven? I mean isn't that a key to the pearly gates? to beleave in God and all?

[Chruser]

When we die, we will find out what happens anyway, so why bother trying to find out the truth? It won't make any change then, unless you get locked inside the thought you have at the moment you die.

[Strider Fury]

God doesnt nessisary judge rather you'll be going to hell or heaven based on what kind of a belief or religion you follow, but as long as you are a good moral decent being. God isnt so dumb that someone can pull one of those i choose to 'believe' in God so that i wont have to goto hell when i die' kinda thing, cause thats probably the most retarded thing even i've ever heard, let alone God himself.

[Demosthenes]

but doesn't it say in the bible that if you dont believe in Jesus Christ then youll go to hell?

[Silverjinx18]

ummmm yeah ... yeah it does... and what chruser said...it's about knowing where you're going when you die...not if it's right or not...if you wait to find out everything before you die then it will be to late...

[Strider Fury]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
but doesn't it say in the bible that if you dont believe in Jesus Christ then youll go to hell?

doesnt the beattitudes says that the ones who are pure in heart will enter his kingdom?


'if you dont believe in Jesus Christ'? what in God's green Earth are you talking bout?

[Medieval Bob]

The idea they are referring to:
The only way to achieve salvation is through being reborn through Jesus Christ. His sacrafice cleanses you of your sins.

[Strider Fury]

i dont get Christianity. its like being forced into believeing in God or you'll goto hell, and if you're a good person but doesnt believe in God you'll still goto hell. its like saying 'hey, however many times you sin, thats cool with me. but as long as you believe in me, you wont get to goto hell.' i mean, like, honestly, its that bigotry or not?

[Tai]

In a hurry and cant read it all but I didnt vote simply because the word "God" (when you really have read into this stuff) can mean many many different things. Soooo, sorta too vague there. :D

[Medieval Bob]

Originally posted by Strider Fury
its like saying 'hey, however many times you sin, thats cool with me. but as long as you believe in me, you wont get to goto hell.'

That's the whole idea man. The only stipulation of going to Heaven in Christianity is to believe and to accept. You just have to believe that Jesus Christ died to save you from your sins and accept him as your savior. Ya, it may sound like bigotry, but you gotta think about it... If perfection and being free of sin were the only way to get into heaven, then only Jesus would be there.

[StonedVegeta]

Originally posted by Strider Fury
i dont get Christianity. its like being forced into believeing in God or you'll goto hell, and if you're a good person but doesnt believe in God you'll still goto hell. its like saying 'hey, however many times you sin, thats cool with me. but as long as you believe in me, you wont get to goto hell.' i mean, like, honestly, its that bigotry or not?

You are kinda right. A lot of Chrisians though they won't admit it, force their beliefs on other people. I am a Christian, but i try to be open to other people's beliefs. I believe that you don't have to attend church every other day, but you have to be a good person. Whether or not you choose to believe in God is up to you.

Then, I can get into the fact that their actually may be more than one god. God said that you only worship him, but who is he showing us off to. He didn't just create us to watch himself did he? I mean, there is no way top know. It is hard to know what to believe in. I guess that if you are brought up i a christian town by a christian family, most likely you are going to be christian. Same as buddhists, or whatever. And who says that maybe the buddhist god isn't the same god that christians worship.

[Strider Fury]

hmmm. good point. but anyways i dont think that Buddhsium really requies you to worship any perticular god(s). the religion is sort of a way of living; to carry out your best each day, to do the absolute right thing and to be a good person morally. but then again, that brings out another subject; that do all Buddist goes to hell, even though they might be a better person then most Christians? and bob, is not like i dont want to believe, its just that i find the whole concept a little bit hard to swallow, but i try to live each day to my best and try to be a good person anyways.

[Jamesadin]

Originally posted by StonedVegeta




God said that you only worship him, but who is he showing us off to?

Satan

[Raziel]

Originally posted by StonedVegeta
A lot of Chrisians though they won't admit it, force their beliefs on other people.

I don't think most Christians force their beliefs on others. I think most Mormons force their beliefs on others. Most followers of the Christian faith that I socialize with don't make a huge deal of alerting others to their faith.

[Silverjinx18]

I don't know that we try to force ppl into our beliefs...we are just a caring religion...I mean sorry for wanting to see that you make it into a wonderful place to live...streets of gold ppl! God has worked his ass off for us...we(christians) should do the same for him by helping ppl learn about christianity....

[Rurouni Storm]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
yeah, but do you expect to go to heaven? I mean isn't that a key to the pearly gates? to beleave in God and all?

We don't even know if there's a heaven. The whole point of my faith is that there's no real way for us to know. If I go to hell for my beliefs, so be it.

In the way I live, I'm almost a Buddhist, though an unofficial one. I meditate for 10 minutes every morning as it helps relax and reflect on the day before. I'm almost a vegetarian (I eat dairy products and chicken every once in a while)

Put your trust in other people and you're bound to be stabbed in the back eventually, though. That's what experience has taught me. I keep a very small, select group of trusted friends.

[Strider Fury]

i like your reasoning storm. and i am not going to believe that God is going to thow me in Hell by being a good person but doesnt believe in Christianity.

[Rurouni Storm]

That's something I believe in personally. We're judged by our actions, not our faith.

[Silverjinx18]

Originally posted by Rurouni Storm


If I go to hell for my beliefs, so be it.



Ouch!...Hell is like hot and shit man! When you go to Hell you spend forever in a lake of fire...sucks to be you!

[Strider Fury]

aha! right there is hard evidence of believeing in God only out of the fear of going to Hell.

Hell is God's own little fetish. and i thought that he was all forgiving and stuff.

[Silverjinx18]

He is...but you must beleave that you have done something wrong and beleave that you are a sinner. And no I don't beleave in Christ just because I don't wont to go to Hell...I beleave because of all the hard evidence He has given me to beleave in Him so that I won't have to go to Hell...

[Logic]

all I think hell is, is a mourning for your own grief or your guilt something that will happen in your own mind spirt what ever you want too call it

[Medieval Bob]

Heard this in a Nat Geo video:
Jews don't believe that hell is a seperate place from heaven. Hell is simply the absence of, or distance from the presence of God. So all the people go to the same place when they die. Some are just really far out.

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Silverjinx18
I beleave because of all the hard evidence He has given me to beleave in Him

Could u give us some examples of hard evidence that would lead you to believe that the whole universe is gods work alone, and that their were no other factors in its creation, and that christ has been sent from heaven to frogive us of our sins.

[Strider Fury]

oh you mean the Bible, the work that was originally passed down by the word of mouth 2000 years ago that is lucky if even 1% of the entire content is non-fiction.

[Silverjinx18]

YES I DO....and Logic, you have seen What Dreams May Come to many times ;).

[StonedVegeta]

Originally posted by Strider Fury
oh you mean the Bible, the work that was originally passed down by the word of mouth 2000 years ago that is lucky if even 1% of the entire content is non-fiction.

Though you may have some truth behind that, I seriously believe that more than 1% is non-fiction. See, I don't want to discriminate against your opinion. Your opinion counts. And if that is what you believe, then so be it. I feel that most christians put pressure on others to believe what they believe in. I just find that appauling. First of all, christians are supposed to express their feelings, not try to make others believe. Kind of like the whole Spanish Inquisition. (Anyone remember reading about that.) Even if they don't believe what we believe, at least maybe they pray to a god, which could actually be the same god, just a different interpretation. Who says that god is a white or black man that only christians can pray to. Maybe God is the same god that Buddhists pray to, Hindu's pray to, and Christians pray to.

[Doofus_AW]

I have this bad feeling that the Hare Krishnas are right and all non Krishnas will spend eternity damned to wander in a huge burning airport in those silly robes asking people for money.......

[Silverjinx18]

StonedVegeta I agree with you on the same God thing a little...I have thought about that many a time...but I don't think it is right for me as a christian to watch someone go to hell...maybe I could help...

[Strider Fury]

but what does that mean? isnt there punishments for almost every single religion out there in this crazy o world if you dont follow it? what makes it more right for someone to believe in Christianity then any other religion?

[Jamesadin]

Think about it, other religions (not all, but some) premote death of their enemies.

[Demosthenes]

jamesdain i may be ignorant or something but i havent hurd of any religions that condone murder. and what about the religions that dont murder their enemies. What makes christianity more right than those?

[tacoX]

Most christian religions condone murder....

God forgives all...

[Rurouni Storm]

Originally posted by tacoX
Most christian religions condone murder....

God forgives all...

tacoX is right, many God-fearing religions have at least condoned murder in the past. For Christianity (and I don't mean to pick on it or anything) remember the Crusades or even Joan of Arc? She was killed partially because she believed in a different sect of Christianity.

And the Koran itself says that Muslims are allowed to kill to defend their faith. The problem is that many people manipulate that.

[Jamesadin]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
jamesdain i may be ignorant or something but i havent hurd of any religions that condone murder. and what about the religions that dont murder their enemies. What makes christianity more right than those?

The Bible says that if an enemy steals your jacket, give him your shirt. It shows that we dont believe in vengance. On the other hand, why do you think Osama bin Laden is attacking the US? Becuase of religion.

[Strider Fury]

Originally posted by Jamesadin


why do you think Osama bin Laden is attacking the US? Becuase of religion.

based on religion, maybe, though its not the main reason. but lets not get into that.

[StonedVegeta]

Yeah, that is a bit off subject. But Silverjinx18, I have to commend you for trying to help people, but I am saying that if you were trying to force your beliefs on someone, then it would be wrong. I am not saying that you are. And Stider Fury, you make an excellent point. It is kind of hard for me to write something that almosts sounds like it is bashing christianaity, so I am having to choose my words carefully. I think there are punishments for all religions, except for atheists, but I won't get into that right now. That will be a whole new thread. Every religion basically says that if you don't believe what we say, you will go to hell, or whatever else there is. (I am not that smart in world religions...yet.)

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Jamesadin


The Bible says that if an enemy steals your jacket, give him your shirt. It shows that we dont believe in vengance. On the other hand, why do you think Osama bin Laden is attacking the US? Becuase of religion.


True but I dont think you can say that what Osama is doing is based on Islam. I dont think it is Islam that makes Osama murder us, it is his own hate, all he is doing is using Islam as an excuse. There have been many murders based on christianity also. Two perfect examples are the IRA in Northern Ireland and the KKK. Both of these groups have murdered based on their religious beliefs, but because of what they do you can't brand christianity as a bad religion either.

Personally I think that if their is a god that their is only one. Hindu's, Muslims, Christians, they all prey to the same god just in different forms.

And I have one question for christians: What seperates Jesus from the common man. We are all gods children if I am correct so why is Jesus the one so special???

[Jamesadin]

Originally said by "The National" in a special on Islam
They prayed for the defeat of their enemys of the United States in this large gathering.

[Strider Fury]

whats your point james?

[Silverjinx18]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd



And I have one question for christians: What seperates Jesus from the common man. We are all gods children if I am correct so why is Jesus the one so special???

Good point...and I really don't think much seperates us...but Jesus chose to come to earth and be a sacrafice through a human form to live w/ and like us. And the second question I look at it like ummmm...the movie Merlyn...like the women makes him and he is born through a mortal yet he is the same as her and he will save the world from the new ways...???get it...

[Rurouni Storm]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd

Personally I think that if their is a god that their is only one. Hindu's, Muslims, Christians, they all prey to the same god just in different forms.


Actually, Muslims and Christians DO believe in the same God. It's in the Koran. They believe that Jesus was a prophet whose words were twisted by men and that Mohammad (the Koran's author) was another prophet who spoke directly to Allah (God). Christianity denies that Mohammad was a prophet. That's the main difference between them.

Islam in fact teaches non-violence, but does state that you CAN commit violence to defend your religion (originated around the time of the Crusades actually) . Many dictators and terrorists twist this idea.

[StonedVegeta]

Yeah. They twist it in many different ways. And I know that chrisitanity looks down on violence, but thenthe question is, why is it the army fights. To protect freedom, but not religion? I could never get that. I am not saying that I am not grateful for the men who put themselves on the line, I am just sayig that I am not sure that as Christians, and Americans, we should have to resort to violence to solve all our problems. I don't think it is right to kill someone because they believe something else. Recent war on Afghanistan in general. I know it was wrong what the terrorists did, but we fought back. Sure we were angry, but we killed not only the enemy, but innocents too. It was too much for me. We can even look back into the past. Revolutionary War, Civil War. (don't even get me started on the civil war.) As americans, and supposed Christians, we fight way too much. Why not do as Mohandas Gandhi? He fought for what he believed in, and didn't draw a drop of blood.

Oh yeah, and Strider, Hitler Youth as your title. WHAT???

[Jamesadin]

Yeah, the hitler youth thing kinda annoyed me a bit too.

[Silverjinx18]

but see I don't understand how we can believe in the same thing (God vs. Mohammad) but everything be so different...

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by StonedVegeta
Yeah. They twist it in many different ways. And I know that chrisitanity looks down on violence, but thenthe question is, why is it the army fights. To protect freedom, but not religion? I could never get that. I am not saying that I am not grateful for the men who put themselves on the line, I am just sayig that I am not sure that as Christians, and Americans, we should have to resort to violence to solve all our problems. I don't think it is right to kill someone because they believe something else. Recent war on Afghanistan in general. I know it was wrong what the terrorists did, but we fought back. Sure we were angry, but we killed not only the enemy, but innocents too. It was too much for me. We can even look back into the past. Revolutionary War, Civil War. (don't even get me started on the civil war.) As americans, and supposed Christians, we fight way too much. Why not do as Mohandas Gandhi? He fought for what he believed in, and didn't draw a drop of blood.

Oh yeah, and Strider, Hitler Youth as your title. WHAT???


That is a really good point vegeta and I wish we could live like this. The reason I think we can not is that not everyone can rise to the level at which you are thinking. When we get angered primitive human instinct comes back and we just want to fight. What we did in afghanistan was really try to take out the terrorists to prevent furture terror. You can look at this in two ways though. One, as the United States being judgemental and racist and predicting that they would cause harm to the United States again, which would probably be the case in most middle eastern countries. The second way is that we are protecting ourselves. That is how we look at it here. I dont think the millitary is retalliating as much as protecting us. The innocent people that dies were casualties of war...which unfortuantely can not be avoided...or so we here anyways. What you say about Mohandas Gandhi would be really nice but Gandhi was a very smart man and there is almost no one as smart as him. I believe his phillosophies would work in a more civilized age but we aren't capable of accepting this and until every single human being on this earth can preach and abide by non-violence I dont believe gandhis' phillosophy can work.

Rurouni storm: What about the other religions such as Hindu, judaism, and others

SilverJinx: Protestants and Catholics make war over religion and yet they are soo similar. It makes no sense and is all very sad, but true.

[Strider Fury]

i can name at least ten things that the American forces could have done to prevent unessiary casulties in Afganistan, and that is excluding not fighting there at all. there was no way that Bush Jr. could have sat there thinking bout ways to prevent them while the American people were as pissed as hell which would result in the possiblilty of losing his next election. something was needed to be done so they attacked Afganistan in haste with very little peperations. the war had nothing to do with religion what-so-ever on the American side as far as Bush was concerned. all he wanted to do was to save his own busted ass, and that is what our religion have been reduced into.

[Demosthenes]

Strider, I have to disagree here. Perhaps bush was doing this to save his own ass and maybe it was without preperation, but America as a whole wanted revenge on Osama Bin Laden, and whenever you fight there will be some accidental civvilian casualties. Yes he could've taken so precautions and planned better but you can not expect him to be perfect. He is a retard but I dont think he is a bad man, and I dont think he wants to blindly kill people. I think his objective was to keep America happy and safe.

[Strider Fury]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd
I think his objective was to keep America happy and safe.

so hey, you know what? fuck the whole world. its America that only counts anyways.

[Demosthenes]

well as long as ur living in america you might as well try and keep it safe. This is off-subject though but oh-well.

[Strider Fury]

i was just saying that the core of America is losing its Christianity. but nnoooo, you just had to pull some of those CNN poparganda shit on me.

:D

[StonedVegeta]

Originally posted by mjordan2nd



...I dont believe gandhis' phillosophy can work.



Why not. It worked for him. He was a great man. He fought for what he believed in, and was known throughout the world for it.

And Strider.....I hate to say this, but I agree with you a bit. My friends that I attend school with, eat every minute up of a war. i can't stand it. It may be American nature to fight, but I hate that innocent people, that may not even want to be involved in the conflict get killed. It makes America look bad.

[Rurouni Storm]

I can name 20 things that the US could've done that would've caused more casaulties than there are. They were really pissed and showed a lot of restraint. Some countries would've brought out the nukes.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Strider Fury


so hey, you know what? fuck the whole world. its America that only counts anyways.

when you are the president of a country that is your main job to concentrate on them..
your mom doesn't birth you then go take care of someone else's kids

[Strider Fury]

Originally posted by Strider Fury
i can name at least ten things that the American forces could have done to prevent unessiary casulties in Afganistan, and that is excluding not fighting there at all. there was no way that Bush Jr. could have sat there thinking bout ways to prevent them while the American people were as pissed as hell which would result in the possiblilty of losing his next election. something was needed to be done so they attacked Afganistan in haste with very little peperations. the war had nothing to do with religion what-so-ever on the American side as far as Bush was concerned. all he wanted to do was to save his own busted ass, and that is what our religion have been reduced into.

so tell me "Logic", if that is your real name, how does one saves his own ass in exchange of hundreds of needless causlties?

but then again lets just drop this subject. if you really look at it, Bush sold his soul to the devil.

[StonedVegeta]

Originally posted by Strider Fury

...if you really look at it, Bush sold his soul to the devil.

Sold his soul.O_O Now I wouldn't go that far. He may have been a bit rash, but sold his soul:killgrin:

[Jamesadin]

Lets try to keep this going, since he have alot of new members since.


God is real, no doubt about it. Well, thats what I think.

[byrdclaw]

too much reading on the subject.. so many pages.

basically.. there's no evidence for God other than written word.

BTW.. I have a 14 inch dick... do you believe that??

c'mon.. it's written word.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways. There's proof for natural selection (there is no proof for evolution, even darwin kinda went back and forth on whether evolution from monkeys was possible) natural selection requires that some form of evolution takes place over a long period of time, doesn't mean monkeys are our ancestors, but it means that it COULD happen... just as much COULD as... there COULD be a God.

I personally just think the bible was written by a guy who was a good writer. so good that tons of people believed him just as people believed HG Wells reading of the war of the worlds.

[Strider Fury]

doesn't mean monkeys are our ancestors, but it means that it COULD happen... just as much COULD as... there COULD be a God.

[natedowgg]

OK!!! here is my opinion... (i voted no) human brains are incapable of imnagining life after deathrite? so that means that we MANIFESTED the idea of a "god" to keep ourselves comforted and btw those "scientific proofs" were probably phenomenons as in SCIENTIFIC so go join the church of christian scientists... go bug ppl entering the hospital or sumthing
-nate

[JohnnyTAE]

OK!!! here is my opinion... (i voted no) human brains are incapable of imnagining life after deathrite? so that means that we MANIFESTED the idea of a "god" to keep ourselves comforted and btw those "scientific proofs" were probably phenomenons as in SCIENTIFIC so go join the church of christian scientists... go bug ppl entering the hospital or sumthing
-nate

Out of the things humans could manifest somebody sure did manifest a good story and lots of history into making a bible and all this other stuff. Also back then it wasn't the way it is today, No freedom of religion or nothing. do you think these people manifest themself a false truth just too die?
Don't get me wrong I am very skeptical of storys like "god" and "miracles" but in the concern of faith it is something that has always been there to get me through the hard times. Now if god doesn't exist then atleast I still had the psycological support to make it through certain situations, a lot like Santa makes the children smile after they know he has been there...

[Caro]

i believe we came from monkeys, so much proof to it i do not understand why people chose to deny it. There is no god. There is not someone or something watching over us. If there was then he is a pretty evil person and not a god.

[Jamesadin]

Why would you think that?

[Demosthenes]

I agree with caro about the fact that there is tons of evidence leading to the conclusion of people coming from monkeys. I do not wish to offend anyone, but I also agree with caro about the part he states about god where hs sais If there was then he is a pretty evil person and not a god. Look at all the evil in the world today. If there is a god why doesn't he put a stop to it? O well...maybe ill understand 1 day.

[Chruser]

Religions were emerged from people's personal urges for power and wealth. They're just there to make us sleep better at night.

[natedowgg]

we MANIFESTED the idea of a "god" to keep ourselves comforted
-nate
exactly wut i said chruser...

[Strider Fury]

lets face it; there's just as much prove that God exist as there is prove that we came from primates or meteroids. thats why I choose to remain netural and optimistic about this entire thing.

[Jamesadin]

If there is a god why doesn't he put a stop to it?

Because we brought the chaos onto ourselves.

[JohnnyTAE]

With freewill comes many great and some not so great things.
Laws of entropy- All things go from Organized to Chaos.
So with that in mind only things can get worst but may faith give light that shines even in the darkest heart.

[Demosthenes]

lets face it; there's just as much prove that God exist as there is prove that we came from primates or meteroids.

Such as?

[JohnnyTAE]

lets face it; there's just as much prove that God exist as there is prove that we came from primates or meteroids.

Such as?

ancient documents, history, holy artifacts. You might say that isn't ne thing but 1000yrs from now documents and artifacts might be the only proof of evolution...

[Valmar]

I completyly believe in god with all of my heart but one question... jesus has been dead for about 2000 years how in the hell is there still more testimants coming out... ive always wandered how they say jesus told them something and just decide to tell someone 2000 years later..personally if jesus told me something i get up and go spread the word that instant, cause if a holy being tells you something your either crazy or extremly blessed either way people should know that. I do however dissagree with one part of the bible... the tower of babble, why on earth would god make everyone speak a different language... he knows they wont get to the holy heavens above and im sure there were dissbelievers back then so every human on earth coudnt have been working on it... and i think the stone henges could possibably be the tower of bable.. it is sorta in a tower shape and i dont see how all them heavy ass rocks got up there it MUST have taken at least 500 people to do it unless they used the dirt wedge method.

[Strider Fury]

what on earth are you talking about?

[Caro]

caro about the part he states about god where hs sais
.

I am a girl.... lmao.

But yeah i read an article about evolution. And how many things helped the Chimps evolve into what they are known today... humans. Maybe you people should research on this a bit. Look at the many ways the skull of monkeys has changed into the skull of humans. You will see. But it still remains on what you believe. Everyone can believe in what they want and will always think it is right. There is no right or wrong in this topic because it is an ongoing controversy.

[Jamesadin]

Maybe that did happen, but people have to realize that the Bible was translated and passed down through word of mouth for hundreds of years...think that it could have changed?

[Strider Fury]

very. the Bible originated from a rather dark period of time and place. everytime the story is told some people may change it to make it better or for it to make more sense. another example of this is that if you've ever played this game when you were little in school where the teacher begins by whispering something into the other person's ear and tell them to pass it on, and at the end the sentence will be different than the original once it gets to the end of the circle. and we are talking bout serveral hundreds years before the Bible even began to be written.

[Jamesadin]

Broken telephone? Yeah, we used to play that all the time. Once it got from "Mrs. Koskie is cool" to "Mrs. Koskie got cought by police".

[Silverjinx18]

Those new comers should really go back and read some of the older posts that we put up...I myself think they are very interesting and could sway someone to think a bit more on the subject...Some of us think that sure Darwin was right, but maybe it was an act of God...I myself don't beleave this because of the writen word (the Bible) says that He made man from sand and...something else that I can't recall...anyway proof is held with in the Bible...if ppl would read it they would understand and it would be a bit eary...the last book would be the best book for a non-beleaver to read...it tells of the world today and how we are in the last days of the world...try it sometime! :)

[Jamesadin]

The book of Revelations...when I was young it scared the hell out of me lol. But its quite interesting.

[Demosthenes]

caro about the part he states about god where hs sais
.

I am a girl.... lmao.



Sorry caro...

Holy artifacts could've come from anything, and anyone could've written the bible. We have no proof it was written by jesus or his apostles. IMHO jesus was just a very good, and perhaps the first true, politician. I don't mean to offend anyone with that previous statement, but think about it for a second. Would we believe someone that preaches the exact same stuff using a different name for everything, such as a different name for god, the messiah, adam and eve had their names changed to something, the garden of eden was changed to something else. I don't think most people would. Jesus christ went around preaching and drawing followers. And all this stuff about ressurection...I personally think that is a figment of someones imagination. I have a question for all the believers. If you had never heard anyone talk about god, your parents were non-believers, and your whole community was full of non-believers how absurd would it sound to you if you were to walk into a community of believrs and they were to say that you weren't created as a seed from your parents as science has proved, but instead as a work of a superhuman being who possesses superhuman powers. If you grow up as a believer than you will probably believe in god, if your parents aren't strong believers than you probably wont either. Opinions can always cahnge, and even the outcast coming from a community of nonbelievers could change his opinioin on this whole matter, but it would sound absolutely absurd at first. Slowly as you grow accusstomed to the idea you will accept it as truth, it is only human nature to grow accusstomed to the ideas of their peers.

[Strider Fury]

a thumps up goes to you. :up:

[StonedVegeta]

.....I personally just think the bible was written by a guy who was a good writer. so good that tons of people believed him just as people believed HG Wells reading of the war of the worlds.

Okay, first. Not to make you look bad, but people didn't read War of The Worlds. It was on the radio. People tuning in, thought that it was real. Secondly, I have to disagree that some guy just made everything up. Sorry. I have my own opinion.

[fockingclucker]

ok noe this is tough but i do not belive in any god and have been an athiest for a few years but now i have switched to "Faithless Catholisism" because iu do belive in the church structure . it teaches us a lot of things about how to live or lives and what not it also gives people a sense of comunity they can say hey i am a member of this chuurch and someone can agree or dissagee forming a thing to talk about (ex. this thread) but i dont belive in an omnipotent being that watches us andd know what we do and will reward us for good deeds. i did however belive at one tim then i found out there is no santa

[Silverjinx18]

I get more and more worried for you guys....can you not just sit down and read the Bible and open your eyes...truely?? The world is ending right under your nose and you are to stupid to see that...you ppl make it harder for me to want Christ to come again because I want everyone to come to heaven with me :*(

[fockingclucker]

wow dude youre hard core ion your beliefs so i give you your props. but people have been reading WAY too far into revalation for a thousand years. there have been floods and false messiahs for centuries. do drugs drive fast die pretty

[Silverjinx18]

yeah, but it's happening....even more then ever...

[slaynish]

If god wanted the world to be gay, i'd be adam and steve, not adam and eve

[Medieval Bob]

Um.. was there any relevance there?

[Silverjinx18]

i think he ment it'd instead of i'd...he's just stating his oppinion...

[www.com]

I dont believe... It seems to weird to be true. I think we just evolved into what we are over millions of years. Maybe we started out from a little organism washing up on a beach?

[-Spector-]

If there was evolution then there would be tons of "half-animals" evolving into different things. Now tell me...what half-animals do we have besides the ones that man has created? And you cant really believe in the big bang theory because thats like throwing a bunch of rocks and sticks into a pile and wondering why a tv doesnt pop out......

[Demosthenes]

If there was evolution then there would be tons of "half-animals" evolving into different things.


Not half animals...no. We are constantly changing...look at what scientists predict humas to have looked like 20000 years ago. So if you look at it that way you can just say taht we are half-animals at the moment...evolving into something else. Personally I dont really have a strong belief in how we came into being but im leaning towards the big bang theory.

[fockingclucker]

spector is dumb . . . umm well i am not going to explain but if you agree post it b/c some of us have read a book or two in our lives (fiction doesnt count + the bible is fiction = the bible although good words to live is ridiculus untill i get an autographed copy)

[Medieval Bob]

So, until you, obviously our local authorized Bible expert, recieve an autographed copy of the Bible (btw, which authors do you want to sign it?), then it is strictly false I am to assume?

*Sigh* I guess I have to go tell the local preachers..

[StonedVegeta]

Holy artifacts could've come from anything, and anyone could've written the bible. We have no proof it was written by jesus or his apostles. IMHO jesus was just a very good, and perhaps the first true, politician. I don't mean to offend anyone with that previous statement, but think about it for a second. Would we believe someone that preaches the exact same stuff using a different name for everything, such as a different name for god, the messiah, adam and eve had their names changed to something, the garden of eden was changed to something else. I don't think most people would. Jesus christ went around preaching and drawing followers. And all this stuff about ressurection...I personally think that is a figment of someones imagination. I have a question for all the believers. If you had never heard anyone talk about god, your parents were non-believers, and your whole community was full of non-believers how absurd would it sound to you if you were to walk into a community of believrs and they were to say that you weren't created as a seed from your parents as science has proved, but instead as a work of a superhuman being who possesses superhuman powers. If you grow up as a believer than you will probably believe in god, if your parents aren't strong believers than you probably wont either. Opinions can always cahnge, and even the outcast coming from a community of nonbelievers could change his opinioin on this whole matter, but it would sound absolutely absurd at first. Slowly as you grow accusstomed to the idea you will accept it as truth, it is only human nature to grow accusstomed to the ideas of their peers.

Okay. I am a firm believer that you have to respect opther peoples opinions. I do think that there are many interpretations of the Bible, but I still believe in God. I know I am not really making much of an argument here, but I do. I grew up knowing that there was someone always watching over me, protecting me if i do the right thing. I don't think that you have to give up all your worldly possesions, but I think that you have to try to do good, and you will ascend into heaven. That is my belief.

[InvaderJon]

Well in response to the simple minded comment, have you ever read any theological texts, i think you would see that the belief in god IS NOT just saying " god is a invisible man that is all good". Theology is very complicated stuff. Also, in order to understand about god being able to be by himself and humans having to be created, you would have to distinguish the difference between creators and creatures. God nature is "to be" therefore he is infinite, our nature, or atleast apart of it is to be finite, to have a beginning. the reason you think that god had to have a beginning is because the whole idea of infinty is beyond human grasp.

[Demosthenes]

yea...but if god is just "to be" then the universe could also infinitley be here and just be here "to be"

[Demosthenes]

Oh...btw i have a question. Is the bible published anywhere online because i think if i have free time i might like 2 read it. Thanks if ne1 can help...

[InvaderJon]

Well, the universe has already proved to have a beginning because its expanding, therefore it must at some time been smaller than it is now and so on until there was a time when it wasnt there, also, the universe cant be forever, or be infiite in size, because that would mean matter would be infinite and that is physically impossible.

damn, i had posted my other one before i read THE OTHER FOUR PAGES, so i look stupid, just read the first page. anyway, id just like to clear some things up:

the bible was not written by ONE person but by many people creating these documents from different times until it went from various scrolls, to the torah/nebiim/keviim, to the bible we know to today, let alone the apocrypha.

also, god doesnt send people to hell, hell is the result of people refusing to go to god, thats why hell is most importantly the eternal separation from god.

also, the bible is believed to be the written word of god. but only one bible is. if you go to a store and pick up a bible, you have not bought the written word of god, you have bought the translation of a translation of a translation and so on of the written word of, the only true written word of god is the ORIGINAL bible, complete bible, written on scrolls from about 2000 years ago. i believe one of the most accurate translations is st jeromes vulgate though, although its written in latin o.0

personally, i dont like the bible. i like tradition, although it would seem much less reliable to most.

and i remember one person commented that most christians are just force fed their beliefs and then just spew it out to others. well, by saying that, you are saying that EVERY single christian is just a robot? i find that very difficult to believe.

ill post more but i have to leave now, cya!

[Medieval Bob]

Well, the universe has already proved to have a beginning because its expanding, therefore it must at some time been smaller than it is now and so on until there was a time when it wasnt there, also, the universe cant be forever, or be infiite in size, because that would mean matter would be infinite and that is physically impossible.


I don't really see why existence can't be infinite. If you think about it, if the universe is expanding (I'm not arguing this point), what is outside of it before it expands? Obviously, there's not much, otherwise the universe wouldn't be able to expand over it. But, far far beyond that, assuming that the universe can expand indefinately, there could very likely be other things.

Also, why couldn't the universe simply exist at one constant state from the beginning, as God has? (By the way, I don't know anything about God and space, only God and Earth, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) It could have simply sat dormant until God decided to act upon it.

Oh...btw i have a question. Is the bible published anywhere online because i think if i have free time i might like 2 read it. Thanks if ne1 can help...

I don't know of anywhere that the Bible is published online, but I'm sure there are some places. Also, if you have a local dollar store, you can generally find Bibles there about 50% of the time. You can find a big stack of Bibiles at my dollar store about every other time you go. And, of course, they are... let's hear the magic words... Just a Dollar.

[InvaderJon]

I dont understand what you mean about why cant "existence" be infinite. do you mean, why cant the universe just go on forever? in response to the thing about the universe, the only thing that could be outside it is nothing, pure nothing. Of course, it is possible there could be other universes beyond that nothing, but all i know about that is...it totally destroys my argument!!!!! no, im jk, but seriously, i dont know.

in regards to the universe being here from the beginning, that would be like saying the universe has THE POWER to have been here from the beginning, and since the universe has no such real will, if you will, i dont think thats possible.

[Hades-Knight]

Thinking about all that is beyond our reach so i think everyone should stfu and live while they can.....

[InvaderJon]

...i like talking about this stuff, and just because its beyond our reaches doesnt mean we should ignore it

[Demosthenes]

I agree with invader...even though we can not grasp these concepts i learn a lot from debating this stuff. Also in response to invader, if the universe can not have the power to be here then what could allow god? I debate myself on this many times, because at times i think that there HAS to be something that started it all, and we could label this god. But also, on the other hand, according to as much as we as humans can understand, something had 2 have created god...so how did it all start. And while we're on this subject, I find it very hard to see how time can be infinite also, although somehow i know it has 2 be. Time can not be stopped....but then how could it all just exist...ehh i dont know.

I know on many of my posts I have come off as an atheist. i am not. I don't believe in god per-say, but if you can offer me enough valid arguments I could change. Honestly I don't know what 2 think...i just have a hard time believing in a superhuman being...that's all.

[InvaderJon]

i think the term you are looking for is agnostic.


anyway, the reason you think that god had to be created because there is nothing in our world that wasnt, because everything in our world by nature is finite, it has a beginning. god isnt finite, hes infinite. His nature is to be, therefore, by his nature, he always was. im sorry, but it requires a certain extent of faith to undertsand this.

time is not infinite, there was a time in which there was no time, infact, god himself is outside time. this is because one of gods attributes is immutability, in other words, he cant change, and this means all changes, for example, he cant have emotions. and since time equals change, god cannot be in time. but since humans cannot grasp the concept of being without time, the simplest way i can put this is, god lives in a constant now. and the only reason time cant be stopped, is because we dont know to do it :)

[StonedVegeta]

What do you mean God can't have emotions? If he made us in his image, then he must feel something. He must have a sense of humor, etc. I can't believe that God is emotionless.

[Jamesadin]

Im sure God has a sense of humour. If he doesn't...well...he should, becuase humour is a big part of life.

[InvaderJon]

well, i dont think a sense of humour counts as an emotion perse, and so im sure he has one.

[Silverjinx18]

...In regards to God and space...
space is made up of stars right...well this is my small imput...

"Then God said ' Let there be lighs in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;"
" ' and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth';and it was so.
Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars aslo.
God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth.
and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good."

I thought maybe someone would get something from this...

[Medieval Bob]

Well, God created the stars in the sky. I never thought about it, but does the Bible ever say anything about God creating the universe?

[Silverjinx18]

well isn't the universe just a bunch of stars????

[MKR]

I have read this amazing book...IT'S CALLED THE BIBLE...you know the one w/ the ppl who saw Jesus and spoke to God and yeah all that...

I read a book called "Men in Black", it had a bunch of people who saw aliens and spoke to undercover interstellar police.

So, by your logic, aliens are living amongst us(and they may be, who knows...), and there's a top secret organization that keeps them under wraps. And the world was nearly destroyed by a huge ship.

The bible is just a really old sci-fi novel as far as i'm concerned.

[Medieval Bob]

well isn't the universe just a bunch of stars????

Universe: All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.

I always thought of the Universe of being the space that contained everything... Maybe I have been thinking wrong.

[StonedVegeta]

Okay....I can't believe that somone just made a reference to the bible as a sort of MIB type thing. Wow. That's a shocker.

[MKR]

Okay....I can't believe that somone just made a reference to the bible as a sort of MIB type thing. Wow. That's a shocker.

I apllied faulty logic to something that most people wouldn't beleive to prove a point. I didn't make any comparison to the bible being like MIB.

[Strider Fury]

at least MIB will make much more sense than the Bible ever did.

[Medieval Bob]

What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible you idiot?

[RoboticSilence]

... i agree somewhat with WetWired
i do beleive in Jesus but not as the son of God
as a man who knew a great deal about medicine and other things.
And was misstook for A gods son. ...

Jesus was the Houdini of ancient times... probably faked his own death as a joke or something.

[Strider Fury]

What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible you idiot?

ooo, an insult. better pray extra hard comes Sunday, Godboy.

[Medieval Bob]

Jesus was the Houdini of ancient times... probably faked his own death as a joke or something.

There was a discussion actually earlier in this thread I believe on the topic of Moses not being able to fake the things that happened. I believe that if Moses is the real deal, by association, Jesus is the real deal also. I cannot prove that Jesus didn't fake his own death as a joke, but I can point out that the statement will likely piss off quite a few believers.

[MKR]

at least MIB will make much more sense than the Bible ever did.

More entertaining too. The bible must have been low budget.

:grin:

[Medieval Bob]

Nice rebuke Strider. The only problem is that you didn't actually answer the question. You simply threw a half-witted insult. How about getting your shit straight and answering the question.

What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible

[Hades-Knight]

at least MIB will make much more sense than the Bible ever did.

More entertaining too. The bible must have been low budget.

:grin:

[Strider Fury]

Nice rebuke Strider. The only problem is that you didn't actually answer the question. You simply threw a half-witted insult. How about getting your shit straight and answering the question.

What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible

no, you stop your half-witted insults and get your shit straighten out. dont get pissed at me over the Internet and then expect me to put up with your bullshit.

[Medieval Bob]

You still have yet to answer a question. I have insulted nothing but your intelligence which insulted istelf when you stated that MIB makes more sense than the bible. I haven't put forth any bullshit, nor do I expect you to put up with any of it.

I have, however, put forth a question which you have yet to answer.

[Strider Fury]

you lost your chance to discuss it like two civilized human beings right about when you threw that childlish insult at me, prior to even allowing me the opportunity to explain myself. live with it. like I've said, I will not take bullshit from anyone with such a magnitude of ignorance.

[Demosthenes]

Nice rebuke Strider. The only problem is that you didn't actually answer the question. You simply threw a half-witted insult. How about getting your shit straight and answering the question.

What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible


I think he was trying to simply prove a point...

[Medieval Bob]

you lost your chance to discuss it like two civilized human beings right about when you threw that childlish insult at me, prior to even allowing me the opportunity to explain myself. live with it. like I've said, I will not take bullshit from anyone with such a magnitude of ignorance.

Rofl. Do you even know what ignorance means?

"prior to even allowing me the opportunity to explain myself."
I've given you several opportunites to explain yourself. Actually, I've even asked you to explain yourself.

[Strider Fury]

whatever.
What examples do you have that MIB makes more sense than the Bible you idiot?

if I am, in fact, such an idiot, then I guess that my explaination will not be worth hearing anyways.

[Medieval Bob]

It would be better than no explination at all. I think you're stalling.

[Strider Fury]

*stalls.

[Medieval Bob]

I'm not going to banter with you anymore. You obviously made an irrational statement. You were overstating something, but when called on the fact, you stood with it. You cannot back up your statement. End of story.

[Strider Fury]

it ended when you made that childlishly remark over a serious matter of discussion. I simply decided that I wasn't even going to brother to waste my time on a person who is so thick-headed about a perticular subject that he wouldnt even look the other way, especially before I've even provided sufficent evidence to back up what I've stated.

[Medieval Bob]

Then there was no conversation at all. If, however, you ever had anything intelligent to say about this topic, you would say it. The fact that you so blatently avoided answering the question*stalls.insult or no, proves that what you said was ridiculous. You know it was ridiculous, and you weren't smart enough to retract a statement when it was called upon for explination. In your fit to discredit religion, faith, and the Bible, you made a stupid remark which has no truth behind it, nor can you fake any truth behind it, which says to me that you are a stupid, immature, little boy. Go watch Barney with Grav, little boy.

[Demosthenes]

strider i would like to here an explanation also.

From what i interpret i think all stryder was saying was an expression that the bible has no HARD evidence backing it...it's strictly a matter of faith. MIB also offers no hard evidence, and if someone chose to believe in it, it would be up to them.

Thats just the way I interpret it though and im probably wrong so that's why i would like to here stryder's side of the argument.

[Grav]

I don't literally watch Barney.

Note: There is no god.

[Pyro]

Does He not make His presence known in the world around us? Jesus has certainly made me aware of His presence in my life. But for the simplest argument of whether there is any god, the laws of physics state that order comes out of chaos only when external energy is introduced into a system--in other words, perhaps there was a "big bang", but even so, it was God that caused it and who willed all the order that exists into being.

[Silverjinx18]

omg...strider are you really hellmonkey???i mean really...whine whine whine,bitch bitch bitch, evidence evidence evidence...this is why I slowed down my replying to this thread unless it was to someone who really wanted to take the time and know something...stop your bitching and give the Bible a chance...read the last book of the Bible and look at the world today...anyone know how many times i've said that???i've lost count...so...idunno...stop acting like a baby and go do something usefull...

[Grav]

Does He not make His presence known in the world around us? Jesus has certainly made me aware of His presence in my life. But for the simplest argument of whether there is any god, the laws of physics state that order comes out of chaos only when external energy is introduced into a system--in other words, perhaps there was a "big bang", but even so, it was God that caused it and who willed all the order that exists into being.

Wow, Wetwired. I thought you were just a little smarter than the average person. Can you honestly believe that there is a god? There is no resolve for people such as yourself. It will be a constant rebuttal of religious propaganda.

[Jamesadin]

Wetwired is intellegent to realize that there is a god and believe that the world is not revolving around them only.
You critisize others for their belifs, that shows the level of arrogance and stupidity on your part.

If you are going to believe that there is no god, thats fine. But just don't be a fool about it.

[Grav]

Wetwired is intellegent to realize that there is a god and believe that the world is not revolving around them only.
You critisize others for their belifs, that shows the level of arrogance and stupidity on your part.

If you are going to believe that there is no god, thats fine. But just don't be a fool about it.


*head re-forms and then explodes again*

You do realize what you're saying right? GOD. An ALL-POWERFUL BEING. What a crock of shit. It's just a scheme plotted by old governments that couldn't control their own public. "Be bad, suffer for eternity."

If you're too afraid, or ignorant, to accept that fact that things happen that we can't explain yet, but will most likely be able to in the future, that's your own problem. Not mine.

[Jamesadin]

I'll make a note of it, somewhere.

[InvaderJon]

It's just a scheme plotted by old governments that couldn't control their own public. "Be bad, suffer for eternity."



i do suppose you have as much proof for that that you do God doesnt exist. You see, its hard to try to make us look stupid by telling us theres no God, when in fact, theres atleast as much proof God exists as there is he doesnt.

[Demosthenes]

I agree with you completely...there is no more proof that god doesn't exist as there is proving that he does. That said though, there is no proof that the MIB do not exist. For me to say that something is real you have to prove it. Let's say, for example, when a child sais that there is a monster under the bed. Would your child be lying to you on purpose?...is there any proof that there isn't an invisible monster under the bed?? But we all know that there isn't any such monster under the bed.

[Grav]

I agree with you completely...there is no more proof that god doesn't exist as there is proving that he does. That said though, there is no proof that the MIB do not exist. For me to say that something is real you have to prove it. Let's say, for example, when a child sais that there is a monster under the bed. Would your child be lying to you on purpose?...is there any proof that there isn't an invisible monster under the bed?? But we all know that there isn't any such monster under the bed.

Uh you do realize that you just proved my own point right?

[Medieval Bob]

If you had been paying attention, mjord is one of the non-believers.

[khwiii]

Quote seen somewhere

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.

[Pyro]

And now I must quote Weird Al... "I'll be laughing my head off when you're burning in hell"

Believe. Don't believe. Who cares. I believe, but what you believe will only affect you in the end. Until then, let us believe what we want, and don't try to "prove you're point". Those who believe have reasons, just as those that don't, I'm sure.

[Medieval Bob]

And now I must quote Weird Al... "I'll be laughing my head off when you're burning in hell"

Believe. Don't believe. Who cares. I believe, but what you believe will only affect you in the end. Until then, let us believe what we want, and don't try to "prove you're point". Those who believe have reasons, just as those that don't, I'm sure.

*Claps* Bravo

[khwiii]

And now I must quote Weird Al... "I'll be laughing my head off when you're burning in hell"

Believe. Don't believe. Who cares. I believe, but what you believe will only affect you in the end. Until then, let us believe what we want, and don't try to "prove you're point". Those who believe have reasons, just as those that don't, I'm sure.

Prove my point? My poinit is, it's everyone's own place to decide what they want to believe. YOU now push the believing point of view telling someone "they will burn inn hell" The fact is, You have based your belief on what a group of guys said 2000 + years ago. I guess with that mentality, what's wrong with Mormon beliefs? Or for that matter the beliefs of the Hebrew nation? The fact is for your "not caring" you have judged me, which YOUR god told you not to do. Read the quote over again. Decide for yourself if i was "pushing my view". AND if I really was, do tell me exactly what my view is. YOU can't, not from the quote i placed there. I CAN based on your qutoe. So thanks.. But try again.

[Grav]

Yes, yes, believe in hell. Good. I hope you go to it.

[InvaderJon]

Prove my point? My poinit is, it's everyone's own place to decide what they want to believe. YOU now push the believing point of view telling someone "they will burn inn hell" The fact is, You have based your belief on what a group of guys said 2000 + years ago. I guess with that mentality, what's wrong with Mormon beliefs? Or for that matter the beliefs of the Hebrew nation? The fact is for your "not caring" you have judged me, which YOUR god told you not to do. Read the quote over again. Decide for yourself if i was "pushing my view". AND if I really was, do tell me exactly what my view is. YOU can't, not from the quote i placed there. I CAN based on your qutoe. So thanks.. But try again.


When he said "it will only affect you in the end", i think he was saying that our beliefs now will have any affect on us after life.

The fact is, You have based your belief on what a group of guys said 2000 + years ago. I guess with that mentality, what's wrong with Mormon beliefs? Or for that matter the beliefs of the Hebrew nation?

My biology teacher tells me that the brain is in my head, by your logic, i shouldnt believe that until, oh say, ive cracked my head open and seen it for myself?

[RoboticSilence]

You'd think that if there were a God, this all-seeing, all-knowing whatever, he'd speak to everyone and not just to people he knows are just going to end up getting crucified, impaled, or burned... seems like a waste. I don't believe in God and I'm only a Christian when it's "convenient."

[Medieval Bob]

You'd think that if there were a God, this all-seeing, all-knowing whatever, he'd speak to everyone and not just to people he knows are just going to end up getting crucified, impaled, or burned... seems like a waste. I don't believe in God and I'm only a Christian when it's "convenient."

Jesus did go around and let everyone he could know of his presence. Those who chose not to believe him condemned themselves.

Also, on the "today" end of the spectrum, I've heard a theory that I like. God doesn't speak to people today as he did back in "Biblical times." At least, we don't think he does. According to theory, this is because today there are so many adamant non-believers, that either God simply chooses not to say anything, or he knows that if he were to do anything short of uh.. say.. blowing up the sun and most of the planets in our SS, people still wouldn't believe it was an act of God. Or, God may be talking to people.

If this were true, it can be easilly explained that none of us know about it. Those who refuse to talk about it are numerous. Either they choose to keep it to themselves as something personal (a good example of this would be this thread. many people bash others for their beliefs) or they might disregard it as a strange occurance or a hallucination. Those who speak out... would, in today's society, generally be considered insane.

It's a sad world we live in today.

[Thanatos]

It's their lives, they choose what to do with them.

[Grav]

You'd think that if there were a God, this all-seeing, all-knowing whatever, he'd speak to everyone and not just to people he knows are just going to end up getting crucified, impaled, or burned... seems like a waste. I don't believe in God and I'm only a Christian when it's "convenient."

Jesus did go around and let everyone he could know of his presence. Those who chose not to believe him condemned themselves.

Also, on the "today" end of the spectrum, I've heard a theory that I like. God doesn't speak to people today as he did back in "Biblical times." At least, we don't think he does. According to theory, this is because today there are so many adamant non-believers, that either God simply chooses not to say anything, or he knows that if he were to do anything short of uh.. say.. blowing up the sun and most of the planets in our SS, people still wouldn't believe it was an act of God. Or, God may be talking to people.

If this were true, it can be easilly explained that none of us know about it. Those who refuse to talk about it are numerous. Either they choose to keep it to themselves as something personal (a good example of this would be this thread. many people bash others for their beliefs) or they might disregard it as a strange occurance or a hallucination. Those who speak out... would, in today's society, generally be considered insane.

It's a sad world we live in today.

[khwiii]

It's their lives, they choose what to do with them.

BAM exactly.. My whole point is, it should be every person deciding for themselves. Yet when i state that view, I am going to hell. The fact is no one here knows what I believe, yet they all seem to think they do.


My biology teacher tells me that the brain is in my head, by your logic, i shouldnt believe that until, oh say, ive cracked my head open and seen it for myself?


Ummm.. nope.. all I need is a cat scan to make sure I have a brain. And it's a proven fact that all humans have brains. It's not a proven fact that there is a "god". I wanna know how do YOU know your religion is the right choice? You can only believe it is. No one truly knows until life is over. And if "god" wants to punish me for thinking for myself, so be it. Eternity in heaven "praising god" doesn't sound very good to me.

[Demosthenes]

My biology teacher tells me that the brain is in my head, by your logic, i shouldnt believe that until, oh say, ive cracked my head open and seen it for myself?

Yea...but that is different. The brain has been proven to be in the head of a human.

[Demosthenes]

You'd think that if there were a God, this all-seeing, all-knowing whatever, he'd speak to everyone and not just to people he knows are just going to end up getting crucified, impaled, or burned... seems like a waste. I don't believe in God and I'm only a Christian when it's "convenient."

Jesus did go around and let everyone he could know of his presence. Those who chose not to believe him condemned themselves.

Also, on the "today" end of the spectrum, I've heard a theory that I like. God doesn't speak to people today as he did back in "Biblical times." At least, we don't think he does. According to theory, this is because today there are so many adamant non-believers, that either God simply chooses not to say anything, or he knows that if he were to do anything short of uh.. say.. blowing up the sun and most of the planets in our SS, people still wouldn't believe it was an act of God. Or, God may be talking to people.

If this were true, it can be easilly explained that none of us know about it. Those who refuse to talk about it are numerous. Either they choose to keep it to themselves as something personal (a good example of this would be this thread. many people bash others for their beliefs) or they might disregard it as a strange occurance or a hallucination. Those who speak out... would, in today's society, generally be considered insane.

It's a sad world we live in today.

well...i think if god openly spoke to everybody a lot more people would believe that he is real. 6 billion people hearing the same thing is most probably not a hallucination. God would just prove himself by speaking to us causing 99% of ppl to believe in him...why he doesn't just do this if he is real is beyond my logic.

[Medieval Bob]

What a tard. *directed at grav*

[Thanatos]

It's their lives, they choose what to do with them.

BAM exactly.. My whole point is, it should be every person deciding for themselves.
That's fine, believe in what you want to believe in.

The fact is no one here knows what I believe, yet they all seem to think they do.

Then why don't you tell us?

[khwiii]

Then why don't you tell us?
Ok sure no problem.

The fact is, most organized religion is full of hypocrites, liars, and mindless sheep. Who is to say which religion is right? Ever notice how Catholics and Baptists really don't get along, even though they "worship the same god"? And why is it Christian's don't believe Mormon's are going to heaven? EVEN though they believe Christ is their savior?

My thoughts are exactly this, I believe that there is a higher "conscience" out there. Whether it be the life force of the people of this world who have past before us... Or even a "god" , that I have not decided. I think this world is meant for everyone to take and interpret the things that surround them, and not to follow what someone has put before them. If not, then why isn't the bible clear cut? Why are there so many different denominations of just say the Christian belief? This isn't even touching on Judaism, Buddhism, or thus and such.

Funny though. I have never had anyone tell me I was pushing my beliefs before, without me saying what my beliefs were.

[Grav]

What a tard. *directed at grav*

because i'm completely right and you can't come to terms with your brainwashing?

yes.

[Medieval Bob]

You're still a tard.

[Grav]

NICE ONE! :up:

[Medieval Bob]

Thank you. I have been waiting so long for your approval so my life could be complete. I have achieved nirvana.