Zelaron Gaming Forum  
Register Stats Arcade Portal Forum FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Zelaron Gaming Forum > The Zelaron Nexus > General Discussion > Opinion and Debate

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

 
Is the dark side stronger than the light side?
Reply
Posted 2015-02-15, 07:03 PM
It seems clear to me that the dark side of the force is stronger than the light side of the force. Consider the fights in the movies where light side characters ostensibly defeat dark side characters. To my count this happens only a few times:

1.) Luke defeats Darth Vader in Episode VI
2.) Obi-Wan defeats Darth Maul in Episode I.
3.) Count Dooku retreats from Yoda in Episode II.
4.) Anakin defeats Count Dooku in Epsiode III.
5.) Mace Windu defeats Darth Sidious in Episode III.
6.) Obi-Wan defeats Darth Vader in Episode III.

In the first case Luke was only able to get an upper hand on Vader after he gave in to his anger, which was an influence of the dark side. The argument can further be made that Vader wasn't trying to defeat Luke at all, he and the Emperor were simply trying to get him to give in to his anger to get him to join the dark side.

In the second case, Darth Maul had just finished defeating Qui-Gon Jinn, and was likely exhausted from that fight. Furthermore, here again we see the light side prevailing only after Obi-wan gives in to his anger and emotion from witnessing the death of his former master and mentor.

In the fourth case Dooku loses to Anakin only after Anakin submits to his anger. The case has also been made that Anakin's victory over Dooku was a ploy, and that Dooku was toying with Anakin much the same way Vader did to Luke in Epsiode VI in order to see if he could be turned to the dark side. This idea is bolstered by a few facts: the ease with which Dooku defeated Obi-Wan in both of their fights who later goes on to defeat Anakin in a one-on-one matchup, the ease with which Anakin is defeated in the previous bout between Anakin and Dooku, and by the pleasure on Sidious' face at the sight of Anakin defeating, and ultimately killing Dooku.

In the fifth case, Darth Sidious eviscerated three Jedi with relative ease before finally succumbing to Windu after a long fight. Sidious was a career politician, and probably not used to lightsaber duels, whereas Mace Windu was considered one of, if not the, best swordsman in the entire Jedi order. The case can also be made that Sidious orchestrated this whole series of events and lost intentionally in order to lure Anakin to the dark side.

So we're left with only two pure wins for the light-side in head-to-head duels: Yoda's defeat of Dooku and Obi-Wan's defeat of Vader. In both cases the Sith were fighting far more experienced Jedi.

Finally, lets look at a few other facts. In a head-to-head match between the grandmaster of the Jedi order and the master of the Sith, Sidious defeats Yoda. Consider the fact that a group which never consisted of more than two being at any given time took down the entire Jedi order.

And this doesn't even consider lower-tiered canon about the Sith's power. For instance Darth Plagueis could create life from the force itself, and Darth Sidious was able to create wormholes capable of destroying entire planets. To my knowledge, the Jedi were never able to perform feats of that magnitude.

So if the Jedi lost the vast majority of their fights to the Sith, where not even one who was conceived by the force could reliably bring down a Sith, and the grandmaster of the Jedi was defeated by a Sith, along with the Sith performing feats that were orders of magnitude beyond anything the Jedi demonstrated that they were capable of doing, how is it that we can deny that the Sith were more powerful. Please enlighten me.
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Demosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to be
 
Demosthenes
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-15, 10:57 PM in reply to Demosthenes's post "Is the dark side stronger than the..."
Demosthenes said: [Goto]
To my count this happens only a few times:
This, oddly, is the answer to your question. If the heroes in a series always win, it's not a story, it's on-going episodic. Dark must have an obvious advantage for the sheer purpose of making one wonder who on the light side will survive. This is why, typically, in stories where "the devil" is present, "god" is not (or the two turn out to be twin brothers). It is because "good wins from the start" does not make a good story. "Does good win? Let's find out." does.
Skurai
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Skurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darkness
 
 
Skurai
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-16, 01:59 AM in reply to Skurai's post starting "This, oddly, is the answer to your..."
The disparity in observed power must be taken as canon regardless of whether or not it's a plot device.
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Demosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to be
 
Demosthenes
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-16, 03:19 AM in reply to Demosthenes's post starting "The disparity in observed power must be..."
Well there might be an error in considering the Dark Side and Light side to be two separate things or sides. They both seem to be methods of manipulating the force.
Take force lightning for example. Jedi don't use it, but Yoda absorbs it during his fight with Dooku with ease. He says "Much to learn, you still have," as if he knew of its properties. And he must to be able to manipulate it so as to not cause him harm.

To my understanding, emotion is the catalyst of the force; negative emotion fueling the "dark side" and positive emotion fueling the "light." People fall more easily to the dark side because they can more easily feel anger than its foil.
How I see it, the difficulty in becoming a Jedi is developing yourself to the degree that positive emotion comes easier to you than negative emotion. Thus, it can become a stronger source of power. Sith train their negative emotion, though they too focus on self discipline. If you watch Darth Maul, he is calm and composed in every scene but the fight scenes.

So to answer your question, I think that the Light and Dark side of the force are equally as potent and only depend on the caster, though the Dark side comes easier than the Light.
The Jedi choose not to use it because it leads to corruption and death. Though I believe once you gain mastery over your emotions, you can swing to either side and be equally as powerful.

EDIT: The fight with Yoda and Darth Sidious was a stalemate in my eyes. The only reason Yoda lost was because he fell further than Sidious at the end, and the plot needed to be continued.
He was also 800 years older than Sidious. I think he was well past his prime.

Last edited by Wallow; 2015-02-16 at 03:27 AM.
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Wallow is an uncelestial body of massWallow is an uncelestial body of massWallow is an uncelestial body of mass
 
 
Wallow
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-16, 01:27 PM in reply to Wallow's post starting "Well there might be an error in..."
Quote:
Well there might be an error in considering the Dark Side and Light side to be two separate things or sides. They both seem to be methods of manipulating the force.
I haven't read enough of the expanded universe to know if the force is inherently divided into a light and dark side but a dichotomy certainly exists in the way that the Sith and Jedi apply the force. So if you'd prefer we can recast the argument as Sith vs Jedi. All of my previously stated arguments can then be seen as the Sith dominating the Jedi rather than the dark side dominating the light side.

Quote:
Take force lightning for example. Jedi don't use it, but Yoda absorbs it during his fight with Dooku with ease. He says "Much to learn, you still have," as if he knew of its properties. And he must to be able to manipulate it so as to not cause him harm.
In the expanded universe it is stated that the Jedi possess an archive of Sith holochrons at the Jedi temple. This would explain why Yoda possesses some knowledge of the dark side, and why he is prepared for Dooku's force lightning.

Quote:
To my understanding, emotion is the catalyst of the force; negative emotion fueling the "dark side" and positive emotion fueling the "light." People fall more easily to the dark side because they can more easily feel anger than its foil.

How I see it, the difficulty in becoming a Jedi is developing yourself to the degree that positive emotion comes easier to you than negative emotion. Thus, it can become a stronger source of power. Sith train their negative emotion, though they too focus on self discipline. If you watch Darth Maul, he is calm and composed in every scene but the fight scenes.
I agree with you about the dark side being fueled by negative emotion, however it seems to me that the Jedi are rather stoic. But I agree with your ultimate point. It's easier to succumb to anger than achieve stoicism.

Quote:
So to answer your question, I think that the Light and Dark side of the force are equally as potent and only depend on the caster, though the Dark side comes easier than the Light.

The Jedi choose not to use it because it leads to corruption and death. Though I believe once you gain mastery over your emotions, you can swing to either side and be equally as powerful.
The idea that both sides of the force have access to the same abilities is a somewhat dubious proposition, especially if we take the expanded universe into account. While you could make the case that in the movies the Jedi simply choose not to use abilities like force lightning, in the novels it flat out says that force lightning is a skill inaccessible to the Jedi. However, even if I grant that you're correct and that the Jedi simply choose not to use Sith abilities, doesn't that make the Sith more powerful at least in practice?

[quote]
Quote:
The fight with Yoda and Darth Sidious was a stalemate in my eyes. The only reason Yoda lost was because he fell further than Sidious at the end, and the plot needed to be continued. He was also 800 years older than Sidious. I think he was well past his prime.
Fair enough, but physically Sidious seemed past his prime as well.
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Demosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to beDemosthenes seldom sees opportunities until they cease to be
 
Demosthenes
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-16, 03:46 PM in reply to Demosthenes's post starting "I haven't read enough of the expanded..."
If we accept the idea that emotion fuels force ability and that anger is easier felt than its opposite, than it follows that the Sith are more powerful. They can more easily draw out this kind of emotion because in war and battle, the prevailing sentiment is negative and murderous. So I believe it is easier for them to fight with power than the Jedi.

However, there are various exceptions that prove my point about individual emotional strength. Take Revan for example. He started off as Jedi, turned Sith (using all the abilities that accompany it), lost his memory and became a Jedi again, then regained it and became something in between. Rather, a true master of himself and the force, able to use both Light and Dark side powers.

In essence, I believe Jedi do not train or use Dark Side powers because they must tap into negative emotion to do so, which would counter or undermine their training with the Light.
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Wallow is an uncelestial body of massWallow is an uncelestial body of massWallow is an uncelestial body of mass
 
 
Wallow
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-18, 08:33 PM in reply to Wallow's post starting "If we accept the idea that emotion..."
So can someone explain why Luke was on par with Darth Vader after what appeared to be two days (one with Obi Wan, one with Yoda) of training?
Skurai
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Skurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darkness
 
 
Skurai
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-18, 09:04 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "So can someone explain why Luke was on..."
Skurai said: [Goto]
So can someone explain why Luke was on par with Darth Vader after what appeared to be two days (one with Obi Wan, one with Yoda) of training?
His father went easy on him.
D3V: I need to get on zelaron more. I'm having withdrawls.
Skurai: You should be used to withdrawls by now, D3V.
!King_Amazon!: It's "withdrawals" you illiterate douchebags
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics!King_Amazon! simplifies with no grasp of the basics
 
!King_Amazon!
 



 
Reply
Posted 2015-02-20, 05:21 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "His father went easy on him."
!King_Amazon! said: [Goto]
His father went easy on him.
Sounds like Vader pussed the fuck out.
Skurai
Old
Profile PM WWW Search
Skurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darknessSkurai has an imagination enthroned in its own recess, incomprehensible as from darkness
 
 
Skurai
 
 

Bookmarks

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules [Forum Rules]
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A relatively brief introduction to modern physics Demosthenes General Discussion 13 2007-06-03 06:26 AM
[GameCube] Metroid Prime 2 - Echoes Raziel General Gaming 0 2005-02-10 03:00 AM
$50 for the Speed of Light Chruser General Discussion 22 2004-05-09 09:58 PM
Alien Abductions Inc. Kuja The Lounge 7 2003-07-25 02:12 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:08 PM.
'Synthesis 2' vBulletin 3.x styles and 'x79' derivative
by WetWired the Unbound and Chruser
Copyright ©2002-2008 zelaron.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
This site is best seen with your eyes open.