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Technology was Religion's Bitch
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Posted 2008-04-07, 06:32 AM
It's my opinion that for centuries, Science and Technology were Religion's bitch - more specifically, the bitch of Christianity, for Islam around and before the Crusades welcomed S&T with open arms.

The Christian religion purposefully stunted the growth of Science and Technology, denouncing it as Satanic, or wrong, feeding the population with those that it liked - the works of Claudius Galen were taught as truth for over a thousand years, until men such as Harvey and Vesalius proved them wrong during the Rennaissance.

My question to the masses is this - why? What possible reason did the Christians have for refusing Science and Technology? What did they gain from it? Why could the Muslims accept it and indeed improve upon the Roman and Greek ideas they adopted, yet the Christians not?

And for those who diagree with me - why? How did Christianity not stop the expansion of S&T, but rather feed it?

Edited by Lendawg 
And they may possibly be a third viewpoint - Technology is still Religion's bitch. Why? What proof is there of that? What are the reasons for it? Same as before the Rennaissance? Different?

Discuss.

Last edited by Lenny; 2008-04-07 at 06:37 AM.
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Posted 2008-04-07, 06:55 AM in reply to Lenny's post "Technology was Religion's Bitch"
They are afraid of what they cannot control, imo. It's is simple as that. They feel that technology will eventually take over and religion will become obsolete. What if, pretend, that one day technology could make it immpossible for people to perish, now wouldn't that mean religion would become obsolete? If you take out afterlife and make the current one concreted then religion would become obsolete.

You make a very great observation and point Lenny, but I wouldn't completely blow off advancements because of religion. Hell until 35 years ago we didn't even have a VCR/Tape player etc.

I feel technology may have been slightly hendered because of relgion, but as a whole I doubt it had that much effect on it, if anything over the ages Religion has helped with technology. (Date back to the Roman empire as well as the egyptians). Shit, the Egyptians religion thousands of years ago have assembled Pyramids and such that would almost be infeasable in today's modern age. Basically, this argument can go both ways.














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Posted 2008-04-07, 07:25 AM in reply to D3V's post starting "They are afraid of what they cannot..."
Edited by Lenny, so as to add a Disclaimer 
Bear in mind that I haven't studied this since my GCSE Medicine through Time course over three years ago, so I might be a bit rusty. However, I'm quite confident that a lot of this is correct. If you know better, though, don't hesitate to point out my mistakes.


The main religion that I feel has hindered Technology is Christianity.

I'll take your example of the Egyptians and Romans, and raise it with the Greeks. The Egyptians and their pyramids (they even had basic ideas in medicine - problems in the body were caused by blocked channels. These channels led to places like the heart, and should one be blocked it could cause sickness. A usualy remedy for this was honey - a substance which, thousands of years later, was proven to have medicinal value).

The Greeks, although religious (as, of course, were the Egyptians), made great advances in both Science and Technology, including the building of amazing buildings (which, like the pyramids), are barely feasible today if we used the same methods. In the field of medicine, they produced some corking folks - ever wondered where the Hippocratic oath dates from? Yep, Hipocrates, a Greek. He built upon ideas of Aristotle and brought the theory of the Four Humours into the public domain - if you were ill, it was because a humour was out of balance. Depending on the illness (runny nose, or constant vomiting, say), a different humour was taken out of the body. They also depended on the conditions at the time - hot, cold, moist, dry.

http://www.geocities.com/nulliusinverba/humours.jpg

This was an idea that was also taken up by Cladius Galen, survived the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and became the standard of the Church (Christian Church, that is) when dealing with illness. How many times have you heard of leeches being used to suck out bad blood, or a person being cut to bleed out the bad blood?

The Romans were like the Greeks in their stunning architecture, and were also the first civilisation to truly hit upon the idea of public health - massive aqueducts bringing fresh water to their cities, underground sewers, a rudimentary form of flushing latrines. It's estimated that under the Romans, comapred to life under the Saxons or Vikings, the English people were not only more healthy, but lived longer.

And then, in around 476AD, the Western Roman Empire was destroyed by the tribes of the Goths (Ostrogoths and Visigoths), the Vandals, and the Barbarians from within (bet you can't guess what the modern equivalents are named after ) - although they had an estimated 500,000 soldiers, the Romans could not continue to build solid borders and at the same time protect the internal stability of the Empire. It became a victim of its own success and literally folded in on itself.

The reason I say it was the Western Empire that collapses, it because the Eastern half survived as the Byzantine Empire, with its capital around Constantinople. It fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks, who set up their own Ottoman Empire (a Muslim Empire), which lasted until the early 1900s, when nationalistic groups within it destroyed the European half of the Empire in the Balkan Wars, and eventually set the ball rolling for the destruction of the rest of the Ottoman Empire with the events leading up to, as well as, the First World War.

Back to the matter at hand, though, upon the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Europe sunk into a regression known as the Dark Ages. And why is it known as the Dark Ages? Because written records are sparse. Extremely sparse. What we do know, however, is that within this time, the Church of Christianity gained a stranglehold over the peoples of Europe, emerging as the single ruling influence, lasting until the late 1400s and early 1500s when scholars enjoyed their Rennaissance period. During the Empire of the Christians (as I shall now refer to it), many great Greek and Roman works were destroyed. Indeed, the only surviving copies of Hippocrates' works, for example, were to be found in the Byzantine Empire, in the hands of the Muslim scholars... who were then attacked by the Righteous Crusaders, who looted everything, and returned to Europe with chests full of the works of the old Philosophers and Physicians... which the Church locked up for safe keeping. Oh glee.

Long post, so I'll finish with:

The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans were the forerunners of technology... even before they stopped counting backwards (to which I suppose we can thank the Almighty Christ). However, upon the destruction of the last great Empire of these peoples, works were lost, ideas forgotten, and the Empire of the Christians rose up, force-feeding the peoples of Europe their own ideas about medicine and technology (Galens interpretation of the Four Humours, for example, and his writings on the anatomy of the human body - dissection of human bodies was illegal in Greek and Roman times, so Galen made do with Chimps. One of his ideas was that the human heart was made of two halves separated by a permeable muscle through which blood passed. Another was that, in line with our chimp friends, the human jawbone was comprised of two bones, rather than one). It wasn't until the scholars of the Rennaissance came along that many of these ideas, which had been preached for over 1000 years, were proven wrong.

Last edited by Lenny; 2008-04-07 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Getting rid of some rust.
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Posted 2008-04-07, 09:30 AM in reply to Lenny's post starting "Bear in mind that I haven't studied..."
Before reading this all, I'll post my thoughts before I forget.

Let's clear a few things up, modern-day Christianity is so much different than centuries past. Granted, there are a lot of similarities in practice and teaching but the mindset is different. Mainly due to the seperation of church and state and the protestant reformation.

To kinda place blame, the Catholic church became an "all powerful" force to be reckoned with. That being said, anything that the church couldn't and wouldn't understand was against them. Anything that offered different evidence to the Bible was deemed blasphemous. Similar to how a lot of Americans judge people based on skin color and social status. If you aren't just like them, they don't and can't understand your ways.

Now, given my reasons, it seems that the real hinderance of science was the Catholic church and not really religion itself.

There is a differance from having faith and having religion. Faith is the true understanding of what you belief and knowledge that what you believe is of faith alone. Having religion is a title that you can carry around and dispose of anytime you want.

I ask other Christians, "Why are you Baptist? Why are you Catholic? Why are you Presbyterian?"

They never can give me a straight answer. Know why? Because they want religion more than faith. More and more people these days cannot grasp the concept of a higher power due to advances in science and medicine. So, let me ask you this: if we have miracle cures, instant communications and information gathering, faster cars, easier ways to make money, what place in our world does God have?

When all that Christianity asks is faith and kindness, why can't people grasp ahold of that message?

The answer: technology. The circle is in full swing.

Say goodbye to God, no one wants him anymore.

Last edited by Wed-G; 2008-04-07 at 09:32 AM.
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Posted 2008-04-07, 12:04 PM in reply to Lenny's post "Technology was Religion's Bitch"
I wouldn't say Islam is innocent in hindering science and vicariously technology. Though a lot is made about Islamic scientists from thousands of years ago, the science and technology advancements caused by that science were motivated by secular reasons rather than religious reasons. When religion started playing an active role in how science should be viewed, the progress of science declined. For instance, Ash'ari's school of theology contended that there was an intrinsic conflict between science and orthodox Islam. There is a horrific lack of scientific understanding in the Islamic world today, and the finger needs to be pointed at the true perpetrator: Islam.
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Posted 2008-04-07, 04:58 PM in reply to Demosthenes's post starting "I wouldn't say Islam is innocent in..."
That's an interesting point, Wed - that the Church itself was acting in its own interests, rather than because their religion was against it.

---

What sort of time period are you talking about, then?

Quote:
When religion started playing an active role in how science should be viewed, the progress of science declined.
As early as 936AD with the founding of the Ash'ari school? After the Crusades? Around the beginning of the Ottoman Empire?
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Posted 2008-06-15, 10:39 PM in reply to Lenny's post starting "That's an interesting point, Wed - that..."
Alright, well, I think you guys are somewhat right. The church went through a period of fear; it felt threatned. They went through a dark time. Men, are weak. They are messed up. The church, at heart, is not what men make it out to seem. There is something deeper, something that so many constantly overlook. All of this stuff, about the church, that has come to pass in it's history, is not from God. It is not what he had intended. I, as well as those who hold onto what the church is supposed to be, are struggling even amongst our own to make God's plan for catholicism awaken into reality.
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Posted 2008-06-16, 12:16 AM in reply to MidnightsChorus's post starting "Alright, well, I think you guys are..."
I would be scared too if someone was proving ideas and theories that directly conflict with the teachings I use to control a very large number of people.
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Posted 2008-06-16, 06:05 AM in reply to Lenny's post "Technology was Religion's Bitch"
They refused to accept these things because it could possibly mean to end their rule and grip on the people. That and they were afraid of the unknown and -gasp- possibly being wrong.
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Posted 2008-06-17, 12:34 AM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "I would be scared too if someone was..."
!King_Amazon! said: [Goto]
I would be scared too if someone was proving ideas and theories that directly conflict with the teachings I use to control a very large number of people.
True enough.

I haven't looked deeply into religions other than basic Christianity, however Christians were taught since Genesis that seeking wisdom was a sin (Adam & Eve + Magic Fruit Tree). The Church encouraged ignorance by maintaining that the only thing important in life is to love and fear your God.

Their old habit of making hard-line statements regarding how things work (world is flat, everything rotates around Earth, etc) didn't help matters either. I'm curious how fast they can rewrite doctrine to keep up with the times before enough people just say that they've had enough.


-"Bless the mind too small for doubt"
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Posted 2008-06-17, 07:59 AM in reply to Vollstrecker's post starting "True enough. I haven't looked deeply..."
Vollstrecker said: [Goto]
True enough.

I haven't looked deeply into religions other than basic Christianity, however Christians were taught since Genesis that seeking wisdom was a sin (Adam & Eve + Magic Fruit Tree). The Church encouraged ignorance by maintaining that the only thing important in life is to love and fear your God.

Their old habit of making hard-line statements regarding how things work (world is flat, everything rotates around Earth, etc) didn't help matters either. I'm curious how fast they can rewrite doctrine to keep up with the times before enough people just say that they've had enough.


-"Bless the mind too small for doubt"
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Posted 2008-06-17, 03:27 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "Where can I sign up for your newsletter?"
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Where can I sign up for your newsletter?


I'll probably be around for a while, so no need.
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