Real America Problem

alright mates ive been afk for a while

To answer mjordans first ceo loving question, yeah i did put that down under the assumption you would catch what i was saying. And you didnt. I realise that my hypothetical company wouldnt be losing money. Its just had i been put in a position where outsourcing would be the only way to face competition that i would rather see my company crumble and fall to the ground rather then put hundreds of employees out of work.

Second mjordan ceo now ignorant statement. If you try you can get a job. Ok hypothetical company again. Lets say I do face the competition and to compete i outsource my shirt manufacturing company to china. Lets pretend a factory that my american employees work in employs 600 people. They all lose their jobs and are force to find new ones. Peachy mate. They will just do their fucking best to find new ones. Now in this city where my lads work, lets pretend that 400 people find new jobs. The rest are force to go on welfare until they can find jobs elseware.

Now these people who got fired from my shirt company are most likely people who havent had any further education beyond high school. So the only jobs the will most likely be able to find are the menial jobs of a shirt making company and other jobs like it. Use your imagination. These are exactly the sort of jobs that are being outsourced like wildfire. And like i said before to compete other companies have to do likewise and outsource. So if my shirt factory employed 600 people, and 400 found new jobs, and 200 had to go on welfare, that means that a 1/3 ratio is on welfare. So lets mutiply that by the 12,000 my entire company employees minus 1000 paper pushers. Then lets multiply that 11,000 people who lost their jobs by 30 to emcompas the entire united states shirt factory competition that outsourced. Now take one third of that and thats how many people are on welfare.


Now mjordan im not saying its impossible to find a job if you lost them, but if people lose their jobs by the thousands rather than by the dozens the avalible jobs fill up fast. And it will be incredibly harder if you havent had further education. And you most likely wont have had it if your job was being outsourced, since its mainly (and thats chaning) menial jobs that are being outsourced.


And the dude who is talking about the lazy fat asses. There arent that many lazy fat asses as you probably think. A family is also a good incentive to find another job. And above is probably a reason why they cannot find a job.




Soup is good food-(We don't need you any more)
You made a good meal-(We don't need you any more)
Now how do you feel-(We don't need you any more)
To be shit out our ass
And thrown in the cold like a piece of trash
We're sorry
You'll just have to leave
Unemployment runs out after just six weeks
How does it feel to be a budget cut?
You're snipped
You no longer exist ------dead kennedys

To answer mjordans first ceo loving question, yeah i did put that down under the assumption you would catch what i was saying. And you didnt. I realise that my hypothetical company wouldnt be losing money. Its just had i been put in a position where outsourcing would be the only way to face competition that i would rather see my company crumble and fall to the ground rather then put hundreds of employees out of work.

I honestly doubt that any reasonable CEO would make that choice. Why? First off, if your company crumbles, the whole purpose of not outsourcing in the first place is defeated. Your company dies, and hundreds of jobs are lost anyway. Secondly, you on a personal note, would be out of a job, and for making a decision as you did, it would be tough to find a job equivalent to the position you were in before. What you're saying is nice, and decent, but it's too idealistic.

Second mjordan ceo now ignorant statement. If you try you can get a job. Ok hypothetical company again. Lets say I do face the competition and to compete i outsource my shirt manufacturing company to china. Lets pretend a factory that my american employees work in employs 600 people. They all lose their jobs and are force to find new ones. Peachy mate. They will just do their fucking best to find new ones. Now in this city where my lads work, lets pretend that 400 people find new jobs. The rest are force to go on welfare until they can find jobs elseware.

That's the way it works. If that's such a major problem, then it includes a huge list of causes, not just outsourcing. For example, lets say company Y is a huge company in New York. It buys out company X in Houston. The employess of company X are then let go, and are forced to find new jobs. It's the way it works. Shall we outlaw company Y's ability to buy company X then? Of course not. It's unfortunate for the X employees, but they can't do anything about it. Eventually, they will find jobs as well.

Plus, I know plenty of new people that are getting into jobs that are supposed to be the major ones being outsourced. Like I said before, it's not a major problem. If it had gone to the extent that you're describing it, then it might be, but it's not.

Now these people who got fired from my shirt company are most likely people who havent had any further education beyond high school. So the only jobs the will most likely be able to find are the menial jobs of a shirt making company and other jobs like it. Use your imagination. These are exactly the sort of jobs that are being outsourced like wildfire. And like i said before to compete other companies have to do likewise and outsource. So if my shirt factory employed 600 people, and 400 found new jobs, and 200 had to go on welfare, that means that a 1/3 ratio is on welfare. So lets mutiply that by the 12,000 my entire company employees minus 1000 paper pushers. Then lets multiply that 11,000 people who lost their jobs by 30 to emcompas the entire united states shirt factory competition that outsourced. Now take one third of that and thats how many people are on welfare.

What?

There's no need for anyone to be on welfare, unless their is some handicap that prevents them from working. Almost all the teenagers in my neighborhood have jobs, I know for a fact that an adult with a high-school diploma could get one.

Obviously the number of jobs being outsourced isn't too bad. As I've stated throughout this thread, your claims would be a lot better supported if you had some sort of hard statistics. As it stands now, statistics almost contradict what you are claiming.

Now mjordan im not saying its impossible to find a job if you lost them, but if people lose their jobs by the thousands rather than by the dozens the avalible jobs fill up fast. And it will be incredibly harder if you havent had further education. And you most likely wont have had it if your job was being outsourced, since its mainly (and thats chaning) menial jobs that are being outsourced.

I don't know one unemployed adult. Not one. Obviously there will be some, but that goes whether you have outsourcing or not. The unemployment rates in America aren't too shabby.

I realise its to idealistic, but it would be the choice id make and from what i said its quite obvious that I realised that I would be out a job. Besides your help proving my point. By outsourcing competition has to compete and I actually didnt think of companies buying each other out and letting the people go. But that is just seemingly worse for jobs.

Now stastics dont back my facts? Let me give you and your naive thinking a tad bit of thought. When you lose your job you go on welfare. The computers *aka the stastics* show you as unemployed. Now as soon as the welfare runs out your not considerd unemployed anymore. Your not considerd anything. Your simply ereased from the computers. My family is in social security so I honestly say I got this asnwer about the numbers being wiped from them. See thats the genius of the system. Numbers of unemployment are way lower than in actuallity they are. Take whatever percentile of unemployement your given and mutiply that by about 5.

As for you dont know any unemployed adult, you should get around more often. I volunteer with my church and help homeless and shit is fucking insane. In my city alone entire companies have been wiped. Im not bullshitting. Look up snap on. They outsourced to mexico. The union asked them what they could do to keep their jobs and the answer was work for 4 dollars an hour with no bennifets. Thats quite a drop from 20$ an hour with family dental and medical.

What state do you live in man that you do not know one unemployed adult? Just give me the name and ill look it up for you. But i cannot give you hard stastics because every unemployed person who runs out of checks is ereased virtually from the unemployment lists. And when people get outsourced by the thousands their is jobs open yes, but not nearly enough that is needed.

And what jobs do you know that are being outsourced that people still manage to work in? And hey dude, of course your buddies are going to get jobs. Its industrial and technology that gets outsourced. Not the commercial jobs of running a movie theater or a mcdonolds. Fucking think dude.

Well george bush has been re-elected. Its the end of the democratic party as we know it. ..........Oh yea, this is probably the last day to go to the library or have gay sex. I John...........well i plan to kill 2 birds with one stone.-One of John Stewerts anchor dudes


Dude how misinformed can you be? Where do you live? do you live in new york. Just in my city alone Kenosha, check it out if you think im bullshitting. An entire company got outsourced to

Besides your help proving my point. By outsourcing competition has to compete

What?

Now stastics dont back my facts? Let me give you and your naive thinking a tad bit of thought. When you lose your job you go on welfare. The computers *aka the stastics* show you as unemployed. Now as soon as the welfare runs out your not considerd unemployed anymore. Your not considerd anything. Your simply ereased from the computers. My family is in social security so I honestly say I got this asnwer about the numbers being wiped from them. See thats the genius of the system. Numbers of unemployment are way lower than in actuallity they are. Take whatever percentile of unemployement your given and mutiply that by about 5.

Regardless, statistics still don't back your "facts." Even if what you're saying is true, and the unemployment rates are much higher than I would believe, we both know that their is a direct relationship between the actual number unemployed and the number given as unemployed. What I mean by that is, lets say (for example...these aren't real stats) that in 1980 there was a 10% unemployment rate on paper, and in 1981 there was a 8% unemployment rate on paper, it's safe to say that that there were more people unemployed in 1980 then their were in 1981. You said it yourself -- "multiply that by about 5."

And we both know that outsourcing has severely grown in the past decade. It's a well-known statistic. I could pull it up for you. Now these statistics are from the Employment Development Department, in case you want to look it up. Here are the unemployment rates in December for every year since 1990:

1990: 6.9%
1991: 8.2%
1992: 9.7%
1993: 9.2%
1994: 7.8%
1995: 7.7%
1996: 6.8%
1997: 6.1%
1998: 5.8%
1999: 5.0%
2000: 4.7%
2001: 6.3%
2002: 6.8%
2003: 6.5%
(november) 2004: 5.7%

I see no correlation between the growth in outsourcing and our unemployment rate. In fact, our unemployment rate has dropped slightly since 1990. Either way, those staistics should be enough to go and show you that outsourcing isn't a major factor in our country. We don't even know how, and if it affects our statistics in unemployment or not. If it does, it's such a minute difference that it's hardly worth being considered a "major problem."

Apparently, outsourcing isn't hitting our market place either:



Again -- no correlation between annual return and outsourcing.

Also, your view on how unemployment is calculated is skewed as well. Contrary to your beliefs, there's no central computer that holds this statistic. The Bureau of the Census conducts monthly samples, called Current Population Survey, of about 60,000 homes, and then estimates the labor force, and people unemployed in the nation.

As for you dont know any unemployed adult, you should get around more often. I volunteer with my church and help homeless and shit is fucking insane. In my city alone entire companies have been wiped. Im not bullshitting. Look up snap on. They outsourced to mexico. The union asked them what they could do to keep their jobs and the answer was work for 4 dollars an hour with no bennifets. Thats quite a drop from 20$ an hour with family dental and medical.

It was more of an exaggeration. I personally don't know anyone unemployed, but I could surely find people if I wanted. There are always hobos you see downtown underneath freeways, who I'm sure don't have jobs. Also, that's the way business is handled. If it's not profitable to the owners, then it is changed, possibly causing people to lose jobs. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate, that's the entire basis of capitalism. If you don't like it, I suggest looking into moving to China. You live in Kenosa, Wisconsin, correct? You're either lying about what that company said, or the employees who are working for $4 an hour are being worked illegaly by Snapon. The minimum wage in Wisconsin is $5.15 an hour.

What state do you live in man that you do not know one unemployed adult? Just give me the name and ill look it up for you. But i cannot give you hard stastics because every unemployed person who runs out of checks is ereased virtually from the unemployment lists. And when people get outsourced by the thousands their is jobs open yes, but not nearly enough that is needed.

I live in Texas. As I said before, I could find unemployed people myself, but I'd have to look. I don't know anyone off of the top of my head. Again, unemployment is not calculated on an individual basis. The time and money that process would take is outrageous. I've already given you annual unemployment rates. Outsourcing still happens, but our unemployment rates aren't too shabby. There's certainly no visible correlation between outsourcing and unemployment rates that you could possibly argue your case on.

And what jobs do you know that are being outsourced that people still manage to work in? And hey dude, of course your buddies are going to get jobs. Its industrial and technology that gets outsourced. Not the commercial jobs of running a movie theater or a mcdonolds. Fucking think dude.

I'm talking about programmers, slick. Don't make assumptions about me talking about McDonalds workers or people at Movie Theaters.

Listen dude your getting off subject and not hitting the point.

First off lets hit your stock exchange stastics. Man how would stock exchange be effected by outsourcing at all? Of course stocks will go up, the company is doing better dude. If a company outsourced its jobs the stocks will go up because its cutting expenses and profits are up. So lets just void your nice little chart their. *hey look guys I have a chart of how tall my plants grew each year, and here is another thing off topic*

And when I said unemployment lists, I was being very general. I very much just ment stastics in generall. Now you say a cenus of 60,000 homes. Lets judge this bit of information a bit. The cenus buruea will come to a home if its populated and judge if its owners are unemployed. Now lets put this into layman terms, always liked this way more.

Thats what jacked up way for doing things.

Lets pretend I lost my jobs and im on welfare for a couple of months and for 2 months this beura counts me as unemployed. The system works. Now after these checks run out lets say I miss my house payments twice and then I lose the house. For those 4 months yeah, im considered unemployed. But from what im guessing this cenus does is as soon as I lose my house im no longer taken into their statisical unemployment rates. Im not taken into any statics at all aside from how well ill do at a homeless shelter. These representives of the beureau go house to house to check if people are unemployed or not. Dude you need money to keep the house of course you have a job. Do you think they count the guy panhandling outside the bar? The family in a shelter or the "hobos" who end up living under the railyard. It is almost as if their doing their best to give the impression that everyone is employed. Lol oh yeah, they are.

And dude i am NOT LIEING about what happened at snapon. I know people who worked their and its crap is true. IF YOU happened to be reading I said it got outsourced to mexico and the people who are working in MEXICO are getting paid 4 dollars an hour. Not in wisconsin. THe employee's union just happened to want to keep their jobs and wanted to know how they could keep it. The only way to compete with the outsourcing was to work for 4 dollars an hour with no bennifeits. Of course they couldnt, they were even restricted by law because of the minimum wage jobs. So their 20+ jobs with bennifets was outsourced to mexico. And its "Kenosha". Look it up sometime.
>>Dude I live in kenosha saying im lieing, mad style harsh<<

And talking about programmers. Every single major company left in the United states, small business's, grocery stores, even high schools have to have programmers to manage and run their companies, business establishment, etc. Your talking about a grounded job that is almost impossible to leave the states. Its secure. I know people who write their own programs to assure they keep their job while doing the most minimal work possible.<<awsome.

Those computer programmer jobs have no weight at all because virtuall all of them have to be done in the states.

But you want to know some high tech jobs that are? Some things that are being outsourced mate? Check this out, what I had to learn myself because statiscs misinterpet the state of a nation.

Microsoft has quietly been moving high-level jobs on dozens of its most cutting-edge projects from the United States to India. The projects include .NET Application Security, Windows Server 2003 Update, and the next version of Microsoft Windows --- codename "Longhorn". Kristi Heim, Contra Costa Times, from knowledgemanagement.ittoolbox.com, 7/29/04; Brier Dudley, CRMbuyer.com, 7/29/04]
Link it to read full article

The Economic Times reports that India is no longer just a business process outsourcing (BPO) hub for back-office operations, which provided entry-level jobs. Now, "more and more firms are setting up high-end technical back office support operations in India to serve their global customers. According to NASSCOM [the National Association of Software and Service Companies, a trade association of Indian high tech firms], [the] US will outsource 6 million high tech jobs to India by 2005 as there is no dearth of highly qualified technical professionals in the country." [Economic Times, economictimes.indiatimes.com, 8/11/04]

6 million jobs will have been outsourced by tommorow in the high tech field. Lets put that into a statistic >

The article reports that "Britain's GlaxoSmithKline, German drug maker Bayer, Aventis of France, and US-based Pfizer Inc are some of the companies that have already begun outsourcing work to India. In five years, Indian firms are expected to be earning annual revenues of $5 billion from outsourcing biotechnology-related services", according to Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw, the head of the Association of Biotech Led Enterprises, an Indian trade association.

Shaw told the AP that "We see outsourcing in this area growing exponentially over the next few years and giving us the same success that India had in software." [S. Srinvasan, The Associated Press, 8/11/04]

5 billion dollars in research. Man bet some americans scientists wish they hadnt wasted their cash on a masters degree in college.

Dont worry tho, the white house has assured us that these outsourcing will continue

From the New York Times: "Secretary of State Colin L. Powell ... sought to assure Indians [on 3/16/04] that the Bush administration would not try to halt the outsourcing of high-technology jobs to their country. In discussions with Indian leaders and college students, Mr. Powell found that the issue of the transfer of American jobs to India by leading technology companies was as emotional in India as in the United States. But whereas American politicians have deplored the loss of such jobs, it was clear that the anxiety in India focuses on threats by some members of Congress to try to stop the transfer by legislation."

hmm colin powel you lied to the UN and now you help backstab the american working force? BAD COLIN, BAD, go to your room no dinner!

The Indio-US Joint Business Council, comprised of executives from India and the US, has proposed a new free trade agreement in the services sector which would cost millions more Americans their jobs.

According to The Gulf Daily News, reporting a story in the Business Standard, "the deal would relax visa restrictions on the movement of Indian engineers, software programmers, scientists, accountants and other professions [from India] to the US. India in turn would have to open up to US players its retail, legal, accounting and other sectors which have largely fought against allowing foreign competition."

What is particularly scary about this proposal is that our US Trade negotiators will likely find that this would be a fabulous way to help the stock price of the Fortune 500!

>>>Whats this outsourcing helps the stocks further mooting the correlation between outsourcing and stocks going down? Outsourcing helps stocks go up you say?<<<<lol

The proposal is now being considered by India's Trade office, but it has not yet reached the desk of Trade and Industry Minister Kamal Nath, according to the reports. [Gulf Daily News, 8/8/04, gulf-daily-news.com]

See mate just dont eat what they give you. Just take a closer look at these "statistics"

Pity
, pity, for all the billions of ignorant people -Bad religion