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Crosses are bad and you should feel bad.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 06:48 AM
A group called American Atheists have filed a lawsuit in protest against a cross being officially recognized as a 9/11 memorial.

No one deliberately erected the cross. Two iron girders, one vertical with a shorter one attached to it horizontally near the top, were left standing in the rubble. Some Christians have chosen to treat it as their sacred symbol. A Franciscan monk performed a ceremonial blessing of it when it was moved recently to the 9/11 Memorial and Museum.

Here’s part of a report and commentary on the story:

a report said:
American Atheists expressed their outrage that, in a memorial partially subsidized by tax dollars, a cross should be the only religious object included.

“We honor the dead and respect the families,” they wrote in a statement on their website, “which is why we will not allow the many Christians who died to get preferential representation over the many non-Christians who suffered the same fate. This was an attack against America, not Christianity, and Christianity’s does not deserve special placement just because THEY think the girders look like their religious symbol.”

In the complaint … American Atheists point out that people of many different faiths died in the attacks. According to the lawsuit, the cross was originally blessed by the priest who ministered to workers clearing the site after the attacks, in response to the workers’ belief that the cross was “a sign that God never abandoned us at Ground Zero.” Naturally, some are asking: whose God are we talking about?
We wonder how Christians reconcile their trust in the beneficence of their all-knowing, all-powerful god with his permitting those thousands to suffer and die on 9/11. If he didn’t abandon them, what was he doing for them? But that’s an aside. The issue here is whether Christians should be allowed to treat the girders as an officially sanctioned religious memorial.

a report said:
Although the atheists’ “us vs. them” rhetoric leaves something to be desired, their point is fair. If the creators of the 9/11 Memorial truly want to honor the dead, they can’t include only one religious symbol, even if it was recovered from the wreckage. It might require a little creativity to come up with appropriate tributes to the faith traditions (or lack thereof) of the many people who lost their lives in the attacks – but then again, perhaps it would be best simply not to include the cross at all.
We are entirely tolerant of other people’s choices and behavior if it in no way harms us. We don’t understand why people worship idols and imaginary beings and continue to hope against all experience that, when supplicated, the idol or the unknown god will do something good for them; but we are as unperturbed by their religious foibles as we are by any other kind. A pair of girders are for us simply a pair of girders, and if some choose to hold them sacred and bless them and kneel down before them in prayer, though we may be bemused, we feel no indignation. We cannot live in a state of perpetual emotional turmoil because others (most Americans, in fact) are religious.

Some atheists are arguing that the cross should only be allowed at the Memorial and Museum if other religious – and, presumably, atheist – signs and symbols stand with it.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 12:36 PM in reply to Skurai's post "Crosses are bad and you should feel bad."
This same group sued to have Utah Highway Patrol not be allowed to have crosses for memorials. Granted, they were 14 foot tall crosses on public property, but I'm not sure how I really feel about it.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 01:29 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "This same group sued to have Utah..."
They want to put Atheism symbols in it...? Do they even have a symbol? Wouldn't having a symbol and putting yourself in the same area as a bunch of religions... you know... make you a religion?
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Posted 2011-12-17, 01:58 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "They want to put Atheism symbols in..."
Sciencedammit.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 02:02 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "They want to put Atheism symbols in..."
I haven't heard them argue that they want to use "Atheism symbols" instead. They just don't want state-sponsored religious symbols, particularly when those symbols are Christian, because so many people believe that Christianity is our national religion which is bullshit. Also, American Atheists don't give a damn about stuff that is on private property, only stuff that is owned by the government on government soil. That is, in essence, state sponsored religion, which IMO is unconstitutional. IANAL though.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 03:39 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "I haven't heard them argue that they..."
!King_Amazon! said: [Goto]
I haven't heard them argue that they want to use "Atheism symbols" instead.
Read the last sentence, derpy.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 05:56 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "Read the last sentence, derpy."
Skurai said: [Goto]
Read the last sentence, derpy.
The "last sentence" was not part of a purportedly cited source, it was merely your opinion on the arguments that atheists in general are making. Cite me a source where American Atheists are saying that they want "Atheist symbols" used in place of crosses and I'll concede the point, but I don't think that has happened.

As a side note, what would be considered Atheist symbols anyway? Atheists do not believe in any given God. I guess you could argue that the big fish eating the little fish are Darwinian symbols, or the FSM symbol is one that many Atheists use to mock religion, but Atheists in general do not have a symbol.
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Posted 2011-12-17, 08:03 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "The "last sentence" was not part of a..."
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Posted 2011-12-18, 12:55 AM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "The "last sentence" was not part of a..."
None of this was written by me. I'll go look for my sauce.


Ta-daaaaaaa!
http://www.skepticalconservatives.org/?cat=2481
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Posted 2011-12-18, 12:44 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "None of this was written by me. I'll go..."
Doesn't really change the facts. American Atheists are not arguing that they should use Atheist symbols. The article you used just says "some atheists" are making that argument, with no citation, examples, or any sort of fact behind that.
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Posted 2011-12-18, 12:57 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "Doesn't really change the facts. ..."
Regardless, there must be some truth to it. Certain Atheists are becoming everything they say they hate about religions.
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Posted 2011-12-18, 04:07 PM in reply to Skurai's post starting "Regardless, there must be some truth to..."
There's no doubt about that, but it's still irrelevant to the discussion. There are fringe types in every group.
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Posted 2011-12-18, 04:11 PM in reply to !King_Amazon!'s post starting "There's no doubt about that, but it's..."
Right.

Honestly I can say I would enjoy if other religious symbols were there. Not to represent the religions, per-say, but to represent that it was the World Trade Center. All kinds of people from all over with totally different beliefs died that day.
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