The Chatholic Church: Gender Control
 

I have to respectfully disagree. The Catholic Church is all about controlling people. That is the very basis of just about any religion. You are given guidelines in order to govern your behavior. Be it not to use birth control, to confess, or whatever, controlling people is essentially what most of the religions we surround ourselves are built on.

Not only do they control people covertly, but they (the catholic church) openly threaten with excommunication. If you're a female and trying to be a priest, you'll be excommunicated. How can you, in good conscious, support a group of people that oppress your very sex? Why are males more holy or what the fuck ever?

It's not really control because followers are not forced to believe in Catholicism. I have the choice to leave, but I don't want to.

excommunication is only applied when the most grievous offences are committed. It is a seperation that a person wholly and completely chooses. Males are not more holy. It's simply that a woman has a different role than a man. In the older days, in the jewish temple, women were not even allowed to enter into the sanctuary. Christ bestowed priesthood on men and, so, it is not a woman's place to be ordained.

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

Well, that is a shame. I had a feeling that my defending catholicism would lead to people disliking me.
In defense for myself, women are not oppressed, I don't see how them not becoming priests is oppression in any way.

The female sex were the downfall of several Biblical heroes and have been subjected to (widely accepted) gender-role subjugation throughout history until the last century, I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes.

Churches treating males and females so differently just reeks of 'Seperate But Equal' and we all know how well that works out.

Edit: I suppose I'm technically Agnostic, but for all the hate regarding 'LOLBIGBANG' vs 'LOLINTELLIGENTDESIGN', most people forget that the Big Bang theory was an attempt to imagine how things could have come about without the divine, not intended to be a foolproof theory. It's entirely likely that any explanation regarding the beginning of things is beyond the scope of human comprehension, especially with our limited understanding of how things work.

I agree completely. I just cannot imagine how you can't see the oppression of women in religion unless you're making yourself oblivious to it.

I really don't understand why you think women are oppressed in the church. We aren't allowed to become priests because Jesus chose men to do that job. Women have different roles. We are equal to men but we are not the same as them. Men and women were designed differently to do the things that we were specifically designed to do.

What exactly is different about how men were designed that makes them not only better suited, but the ONLY ones suited to be priests?

What's different about women that makes them unable to do it?

Are you really so blind to think that your church thinks that women are EQUAL to men? Let me open your eyes a bit.

I don't expect you to read all of these, but I'm going to make a nice big list for you. I would love it if you DID read all of them and attempt to dispute them, if you can. Unfortunately, I think you enjoy being oblivious to the truth. Don't worry, though, I'm not going to use anything but quotes from the very book that your religion is based on: The Bible.


Even after this, he was spared from the destruction of the city, because he's such an honorable man (hah.)


He said this because he felt that the boys were a threat but the girls were insignificant and could do nothing to threaten his kingdom.


Here's one from the 10th commandment, which I'm sure you know very well as a religious person:
Let's analyze: What's listed? House, wife, manservant(male slave), female servant(slave), ox, ass, or anything else that belongs to him. Notice how these are all regarded as PROPERTIES. The Tenth Commandment ITSELF implies that women are the property of their husbands.


This one is a gem. Not only does it say that a man can sell his daughter as a servant, but that she doesn't go free (after the 6 years that a man has to wait to go free) like manservants do.


It's important to note that the first 17 verses of chapter 22 of Exodus address restitution for stealing or damaging someone elses property. The basic point of these two verses is that if a man sleeps with a father's virgin daughter, the man has to pay the father for the "damage" to his property. The damage to the property is the fact that the man took the virginity of the daughter, meaning she's worth less (since the father cannot sell her virginity to her future husband that would be decided by the father.) On top of all this, the man must marry the daughter, regardless of what she wants, unless the father refuses.


This one is pretty self-explainatory. I suppose giving birth to a girl makes a woman more impure than giving birth to a boy? That's odd, since men and women are supposed to be equal.


These all have to do with adultery. Notice how not a single one refers to the fact that the man is doing any wrong to his own wife, only that he is doing wrong to the husband of the woman he is sleeping with. Adultery was defined as a man sleeping with a married woman or a woman engaged to be married. If a man were to sleep with an unmarried woman, he did no wrong to his wife. Married men were free to visit prostitutes.


So a girl is worth less than a boy. But surely this must be wrong! Your church thinks men and women are equal, right?




Looks to me like women are pretty much fucked in this scenario, with the exception of a daughter with no brothers.


Equality, huh? Doesn't sound like she has any sort of choice.


So if a girl is not a virgin when married, she's killed. I challenge you to find such a law for men. I assure you, it doesn't exist.


So if a virgin girl is raped, she must marry her rapist, regardless of what she wants.


Divorce could only be initiated by the husband. The wife could not divorce her husband, even if he wanted to. Sounds to me like she's his property.


Another self-explainatory one. Also quite disgusting.


Doesn't get any clearer than that.


Clear as crystal, just like the last one.


How dare you speak in church, wench!


I'll admit, I'm getting tired of basically copying the same thing over and over, but hopefully I'm proving my point. This is a recurring theme in your religion, regardless of whether or not you see it.


This is a pretty clear one as well, however it also refers to women being priests. It basically says that women shouldn't be priests because Eve was decieved by the snake and Adam was not. So basically, women are susceptable to sin. I guess they think men are better? Maybe molesting little boys isn't a sin.


The weaker partner.


"They" is referring to the older women. This says that the older women can teach the younger women to do all of those things, including to be subject to their husbands.





I guess that will be all for now. I've spent like 3 hours now doing this, and I think this is more than enough to open your eyes, assuming that's possible. At the very least, dispute it. I'd rather not feel like my time was wasted.

Actually, I feel like doing a little bit of summarization and drawing a few conclusions. However, I'm going to just do it in this post, since the last one is already monsterous.

Have you ever wondered why these things are part of your religion? Why does God look down on women like that?

The answer, in my opinion, is because God isn't the one writing. Men wrote the bible. Men teach and taught the sermons. Women, a lot of times, weren't even ALLOWED TO LEARN about the bible. I kid you not. Isn't it obvious that this is simply a case of the people in power keeping it that way? The men say "well God says so, it's right here in the bible! He says we're superior to you." This keeps them in power, so that they can maintain control over women.

Perhaps that's why women often weren't allowed to read about the bible? Perhaps that's why women aren't allowed to be priests? There's no logical reason for "God" to desire those things. Men desire those things. This allows and allowed men to be free to do whatever they wanted. They could sleep around, they could kill, they could treat "their women" however they wanted and get away with it. However, women weren't given the same freedom.

Now, I'm not saying that things are as bad now as they were back then. I'm just saying, this is a VERY STRONG theme in the Bible. I don't see how you could possibly have read the bible and not seen it.

Anyway, I'll be awaiting your response.

Thanks for doing what I was entirely to lazy to do.

Edit: Some of that was actually even worse than I thought. I may have to pick up a Bible now...

!k_a!your wrong about that men wrote the bible theres a coulpe of books in it they are ruth and ezra

Ezra, the male Jewish preistly scribe fellow who led 5000 Israelites to someplace or other, yes?

Sure you're not thinking about "Esther"? Last time I looked, that was a female name.

soryy ii couldnt find the right book in the bible

There's no proof at all that either of those books were written by women. It seems to be widely accepted that Mordecai wrote the book of Esther, and Samuel wrote the book of Ruth. The authors of both of them are unknown, though.

Either way, the rest of the books are either of unknown authorship or are written by men. It is within these books that the treatment of women by Christianity is established.

A book written by men tells you that Christ bestowed the Priesthood upon women only. Don't fool yourself into believing all of that is the true, unadultered word of God. I'm not saying the bible isn't a great literary piece and, for the most part, has a lot of good wisdom to it. However, the ignorance it also spreads is retarded.

As I mentioned in another thread, the ignorance it spreads is a primary objective.

Hey !King_Amazon! I just wanted to let you know that I have read all of your passages from the bible and I am going to respond to them as soon as i can. i have been without internet for awhile so, bear with me.

I've read through a bit of what everyone said.

I Highly dislike ANY gender separation. Infact, I dislike people says men are better physically but not mentally. I think we're all equal in all areas, but have been somewhat "brainwashed" so our bodies do not meet the state they can.

As for the controlling thing, I agree. I think many beliefs are too controlling over people, again, female in particular. I had a friend a while back, she was Muslim. Her belief did not allow her to date anyone, period, and she would have an arranged marriage. She highly disliked this, being born in the US where almost everyone was dating, and free to choose the life they wanted almost completely. (infact, we secretly dated for a few months.)

Basically, what I'm saying is People should do what they want, without control. That is, my belief at least. "Do what you want, as long as it is Just and Not cruel."

That's cool. Even if you don't respond, I'm glad you at least read them.

I gotta admit some of the things I read in the bible (back when I read it) disappointed me greatly. I also contested a man once which is a story I will now tell you in hopes you do not become as weak as he.

It was in the spring of 1995 and we lived in Salem. Ironically we lived on Church Street. Anyways this missionary came to our house and I opened the door. The man obviously tried to fast talk me thinking "Gee this kid must be stupid since his familly is poor." However I started asking question and would not let up. Here are those questions that day along with his dialouge.

Priest: "Hello there. We are spreading the word of God you *WILL* learn with us this Sunday."

Statement rather than question don't you agree?

Richard: "No I think Church is a waste of time."

Priest: "(Prays and starts making a scene.)

Richard: "What are you doing?"

Priest: "Praying to God to save your soul."

Richard: "How do you know that I even have a soul? How do you know this precious God of yours exists? And who the hell said you can pray for me? You are not my better."

Priest: "But God says I am your better."

SHAZAM there it is in white and black. Older men are "The Best" no one may contest what they say and I will prove this as I go on just read through this and keep an eye open it will be the reoccuring theme. Yes I wrote down everything that was said that day since I had a terrible penmanship and was practicing by writing anything I could down for months.

Richard: "Once again I ask who is this God you fear so much?"

Priest: "I do not fear Him as he watches over me."

Richard: "Even when you have sex, shit, piss, and masturbate?" (Yes I really said that.)

Priest: "Such vulgar language from a child your parents have done a terrible job!"

Richard: "Not as bad as you for having your child there dressed up in such a hot day and not letting her have any water."

Priest: "God will take care of him do not worry he takes care of us all."

Richard: "Who is God final chance to answer old man."

Priest: "(Once again prays this time getting up he answers) Now you should know as I have prayed for it to be revealed to you and I know that you will now be blessed with knowledge beyond this world."

Richard: "I still don't know who or what you are talking about and how do you know without a doubt and infallibly that there is another world? What is it's name and what is the race that lives there?"

Priest: "I am talking about God's kingdom child."

Richard: "Okay so I finally gleemed from that sentence that this God is a person. But what is his name? Who is he? How do you beyond any reasonable doubt have proof he exists?"

Priest: "Through prayer it has been revealed to me."

Richard: "Answer my questions this is the last time I ask. Afterwards depending on your answers I might not kick you in the balls and scream rape.(Yes I had anger problems back then and still do when it comes to stupid people.) Who is God? How do you KNOW without a doubt he exists? Where is this Kingdom in this modern world? Why do you think that asking the air for answers will get you those answers and can you prove anything you say is true?"

Priest: "Because *I* have been told so by Him."

Richard: "Word of mouth isn't much to go by. Unless your daughter wants to say something to support it?"

His daughter suddenly was frightened greatly. I knew something was wrong with this man and I was only 7 years old at the time.

Priest (Suddenly angry): "It is not this whores place to answer questions of man! Hit her now!"

Yes he asked me to hit her. At this point I decided to kick him in the balls and scream rape. After which the cops were eventually called now beyond writing no one thought I had proof. However I also recorded visits from people as my mother usually asked my sisters and I to do. After examining the evidence my parents were able to sue for mental damage and the damage he did to the door trying to break it down. As well his daughter was taken from him. The moment he asked me to hit her *I* *KNEW* this man was nothing more than crazy through both evidence and logic. Tell me can prayer bring evidence and logic? No. Because all prayer and meditation is is reflecting on your own descision. No matter what you will claim God told you the truth but in reality you only garnered your own biased choice towards the matter.

Another question I frequently ask is why God would desire ANY of HIS OWN creations to be treated like that. To date and I am now 20 I have gotten NO answer. In fact all you mooks do is get on your knees and "Pray" and make a dramatic scene.

The fact still remains that your religion which I have fought since I was 13 has gotten raped time and again by a mentally retarded young man who has anger issues. All I used was logic and evidence to do it too.

So I now ask you. Who is God and why on earth would a supposed omnipitent being want something so evil to happen?

Answer me or I will count this as another victory for the mentally retarded young man with anger problems. If your answer is not satisfactory I will ask again and again until you give me one.

EDIT: By Satisfactory I mean an answer of logic and evidence which should not be hard to garner ,should what you think is truth, to be fact.

....

I'd have Kicked him too after that. :mad:

That one phrase has pissed me off for the day. Cyeah later Guys. :mad:

Aren't you a supreme mod? It seems to me that as one, your biased opinions on her seem to be more of a detriment to this topic than most other posts regarding the matter. I've seen you do the same here http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46155

(whole contents of his post)

Then, you said this here http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46306

(Same here, whole contents of your post)

It seems that this is the exact situation, different words. Don't we have a rule against treated new members badly? "I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you." Get over yourself, you pushed her away because she really can't defend herself here. All she's trying to do is defend her beliefs. What if I told you, with credible evidence, that air is oppressing men. Would you defend it saying it's never oppressed you?

I felt I'd stay out of it until she stopped wanting to come here. I may not agree with your or her feelings about the Catholic church in any way, but because she's a human being in control of her own opinions and her own life, I have to trust that when she says she doesn't feel controlled, then she isn't controlled.

It may not be what you believe, and it may turn out that it's true, but if she isn't oppressed and doesn't feel that women should be priestess's, then she's not and they shouldn't be.

God left the priesthood in the control of the Levites, more specifically in the hands of Aaron and his sons. It doesn't not say that the daughters of Aaron should have the authority, but the sons.

"How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion 'says so'"? This is nothing but an opinion and I think what I said above on her opinions shatters it's legitimacy.

and hotdog, I'll quote some stuff for you. It's not an answer to your question; you can have your victory if you want it.

I don't really think KA was entirely rude to her. Yea, he could have phrased things a little nicer, but that's just not him. It's too bad if your girlfriend doesn't want to post anymore. She just needs to take everything said here with a grain of salt and just have some fun. If he's rude to her, be rude back, and let out some steam :). That's what the internet is good for. That way she doesn't shoot up a supermarket at the end of the day.

P.S. I dated a Catholic for a while and females in the Catholic religion are, indeed, a bit oppressed. That's said for about any religion though. You can really tell it's written by men.

I don't really understand what you mean. This is the opinion and debate forum. We were debating the topic. It's not like I was flaming her.

If anyone is biased here, it's you. If it had been any other member I was debating with, you never would have said a word. You're just jumping to the defense of your girl (which, while respectable, is still biased.)


We have rules against treating new members badly in the Introduce Yourself forum. When they start expressing their beliefs in the way that she did, she's asking for a debate. Either way, debating with new members is not against the rules. A debate is a two-sided thing. She's completely free to not participate in it.

Either way, it's not your place to tell me the rules. If you think I'm breaking any rules, talk to Chruser or WetWired.


It's not my fault she's defending an undefendable position. What do you expect, that I simply not contest her views because there's no way she can defend them?

My goal is to educate. Your significant other seems to be somewhat blind to the oppression of her sex within the Catholic church, and Christianity/Religion in general. I've attempted to prove my point in a pretty professional manner (see LONG ASS POST on the first page.)

When you have credible evidence that air is oppressing men, we can address that situation. I would most likely believe you, depending on how credible your evidence was. The difference between that and this, though, is that your significant other not only doesn't believe there is any gender oppression, but she defends it as well, saying things such as "it's not a womans place to be in the priesthood" or whatever. She's clearly been taught to actually believe that bullshit, and I think it's disgusting. Quite honestly, I'm not so much disgusted by her as I am by her church. That's why I actually took the time to attempt to educate.


Or perhaps she has been taught that way.

Do you know how many people are unknowingly under the control of others in our world? Clever people can control others very easily. It's called manipulation. When a bunch of old men get together and decide to write a book about GOD "written by" GOD and preach that it was "written by" GOD and GOD says that men are better than women, that's called manipulation. A bunch of like-minded gentlemen basically had the most brilliant idea ever for forcing their ideals onto the masses.


In her opinion, which is based on what she has been taught by the priesthood.


According to the Bible, which has questionable legitimacy. The Bible also says a lot of other insane nonsense, do you follow it as well?


Of course it is an opinion. This is the OPINION AND DEBATE forum. No shit.

However, my opinion is backed up by quite a lot of information, specifically from the Bible itself. If you claim that the church doesn't oppress women, dispute my evidence.

Let me make it quick for you, though. You can't. The evidence I compiled in my long ass post is indisputable and undeniable. At the very least, if you're going to disagree, do it in a better way than "she doesn't feel oppressed so she isn't." As I stated above, plenty of people are under the control of others and do not realize it. It's called manipulation.

All I was attempting was to defend her, I don't have the time nor patience to actually dispute the topic.

But I will say this. You talk of being manipulated and how wrong it is. Ever heard that Satan's most cunning trick is convincing people that he doesn't exist?

What if you're wrong? You spend all this time convincing her to believe what you believe. Who's manipulating now?

What do you mean? I'm not trying to convince her that her religion is a lie. I'm trying to SHOW her that her religion oppresses her gender.

I can't, by any means, prove that her religion is right or wrong about God or Satan or whoever else. I can, using facts, prove that her religion is oppressing her gender.

What exactly are you defending her from? I'm not attacking her, I'm debating with her. If you want to defend her, defend her side. Otherwise, you just look like a biased boyfriend. And a dumbass.

And do you not think she can defend herself? I guess she's just incapable of doing so because she's a woman, right?

Not at all. But I do want to apologize, I was kinda pissed and because of that I misinterpreted either the situation or what you said.

So, just to put me on a side, I don't feel that the Catholic church oppresses women. I feel that, just as you were given the job of a moderator, God gave men the job of priesthood. We have certain roles that we must play in life. The only real reason why people seem to think that a man doesn't necessarily have to work the field and that a women doesn't have to be a housewife, is because no one wants to fill those roles. No one wants to be told what to do, because "we're in control of our own lives." Which is fine and dandy if we're all alone and we evolved from nothing. But, given that the people of the Christian faith believe in God, that they believe in obedience to God's laws, they wish to be obedient and the wish to serve.

Everyone wants to lead their own life, and some aren't cut out for servitude, yet others love that calling and enjoy it. Given that they believe and most likely enjoy their faith, the have no problem fulfilling those roles.

I hope this is a better post than before, and I hope it can further the discussion.

Well that covers one of the many ways I've shown that the church oppresses women. Have you read the long post I made on the first page? Women not being included in the priesthood is only one example of it. All it shows is that the recurring theme of gender oppression in the Catholic church is still going strong. There are still many other examples of gender oppression in the past and in the bible.

I think most people think Men are suppossed to be in control due to misunderstanding.
I've heard anything like this from people.

"He Made Adam first, so he's in charge."
- So if the women is born 1 second earlier, she's in charge.


"Women aren't as smart, strong , or emotionally stable as men, so it only makes sense we get to tell them what to do."
- Sounds to me like it makes sense for us to take care of them, not them us...

God made Priest Hood in the men only? He also made his Baby shoot out a Womens Vag., so it sounds about even...


To men, I just think some people are being Ignorant when they say men should be in charge... :o

I listed a very large number of things from the Bible showing that according to the Bible, men and women are not equal. It's not just a "misunderstanding."

Hnn... Right...
I guess this just adds more to "The list of things I don't like In the Bible."

That's the difference between you and me Skurai. You think men are ignorant for saying it but I know men are ignorant for saying it. The rest is aimed at the retards who take the bible word for word as infallible truth. Faint of hearts should not read.

I cannot begin to tell you how many men I have met from various church groups. I met so many I just can't count them all. One thing I do remember is that not a single one of them was smarter than me. Why? They let emotions and some crackhead from thousands of years ago tell them what to do. This in turn reduces their learning curve making them stupid to various facts it does not make them "wise" or more "knowledgeable". For instance, my friend knew math yes. Did he know why it was created or who created it? No. Same for me. Seems to me like the only difference is that he let some dead guy run his life.

In fact we had a test to see just how awesome his "God" really was. I told everyone to pray and let him have victory over me in a fight. Did it happen? No. I kicked his "God" fearing ass to next Tuesday. Why? Because he thought that praying would allow him to become skilled enough to beat me. Prayer is nothing. It does nothing. I do this time and time again and not once have I lost. The experiment is as follows. I take something I am good at and the target knows nothing about. He can get everyone and their mother to pray for his victory if he wants. He can do it himself. No matter what the activity is they never win. Because they are not skilled and "prayer" does not help them.

Long story short. The bible says to practice and study itself. Do people do that? No. They want the easy way out. Your "God" cannot help you in the face of someone who knows what he is doing and he cannot simply grant you triumph. Your skill lets you win and nothing else. That case being proven I moved on to see who was more skilled. Women or Men.

So far it's a toss up. Seems men make themselves stupid just as much as women do. I have seen no clear victor. The bible has lied. Women can in fact be better than men in any skill or talent. People are different and the only reason a woman will ever be less skilled than a man is because he holds her back with the bible. Or anything else that supports the myth of women being evil and worthless.

Facts are simply put. You are not better than anyone else as a human because a human is a human. We all bleed the same blood regardless of what someone's gender or color is.

The bible is full of lies and deciet. Most likely because ancient men wrote it.

Thankyou, dear. For defending me and all. It means a lot to me.



I'm going to try to defend it. I have a few quotes from the bible i can use. I just have to organize them.

Yea, Midnight, please don't take any of our posts the wrong way. I don't think anyone thinks you are dumb or anything for defending and enjoying your religion. It's just some of us have issues understanding how you can fully embrace it sometimes, you know? We all have our doubts about many things throughout our lives. I, and apparently KA, just doubt that a religion was divinely created that preaches inequality to the sexes and has given justification to countless generations of men who indulged in rampant sexism (and a lot of times virtual slavery) of your sex.

Thank you for this. I appreciate it a lot. I also do understand where you're coming from with all of this, and I respect you guys for your views.

This is the truth.

I think the funniest thing about the bible is that you can tell more than one person wrote in it if you ever learn about writing styles. For instance I was reading a few paragraphs and I noticed that suddenly the way it was written had changed. It went from a condescending but detailed writing to a very un-detailed and bad grammar use style of writing. In one paragraph. That proves that more than one person wrote that paragraph. People write the same way ALWAYS it's as unique as your gait, fingerprints, and ears. KA has always and always will come across as rude as he has in all his posts. At least ones that pertain to higher use of intelligence. Obviously people all write certain phrases the same like "Thank you" or "Thanks".

Anything that requires he write with a higher state of conciousness (that is his own opinions and way of thinking required) it will come off as rude. Don't believe me? Want proof? Read all his above posts. EVERY ONE OF THEM COMES OFF AS RUDE. This happens in everything he writes that requires his own mind to be creative in it's writing. Because he is unique in his thinking patterns his way of writing is unique.

I'm confused. Are you calling me an asshole, or justifying how I talk?

I'm saying that you are blunt when it comes to debating. You skip all the foreplay that is behind being manipulative and you just state things as they are. This makes people *think* you are rude when in actuallity you are simply stating facts and leaving out all the emotional, psychological, and manipulative BS in your writing and speech. Unless you specifically try to extend it which in this case is uneeded.

You could say I am justifying the way you write. In reality I am actually stating that you may come off as rude even though you aren't and are not trying to be because of your own way of thinking which is unique to each person.

It was mostly me telling Wed-G that it's not your fault for coming off that way.

Also I am trying to use this as a tool to shoot down a lot of things stated in the bible by using it to prove different people have written in the same paragraphs.

Yes. I've always believed that was well.