Real America Problem
 

what do you think is worst thing afflicting America right now?

1. Moral Issues

2. Economy debt

3. Outsourcing

4. War in Iraq

5. One sided politics *right wing cabinet*

I have to say outsourcing. You just have to expect number 5 will happen and with time things will change, maybe one day it will be more or less entirely left wing. The war is messed up but come on dudes, were going to be in pre-emptive wars that doesnt directly involve us I think till the end of time * ill be against it till the end of time :killgrin:

Moral issues, if anyone is dumb enough to look in moral issues general direction with whats going on with the united states well, fuck them.

But outsourcing. Well we will have outsourced 6 million high technical jobs to foreign countries by 2005. With the great works of Colin Powell visas have become even more lax. Drug firms are moving biotech industries to India. This alone will result in American losing 5 billion dollars in research and jobs * mainy Pfinzer Inc Fuck em* Bank sterns, computer tech jobs.
The worst part of this is that its no longer menial jobs that are being outsourced. High paying college required careers are being outsourced. So whats left, contract building and commercial enterprises? Aka road work and being the manager of Mcdonolds.
Just like the free trade agreement in China the same is happening for India. Politics helping ceo's to bring down the middle class so the select few can profit. The war on terror has effected the lives of 2000 families and over 1000 families in Iraq *if you can even count that as being remotely involved on the war on terror.* Economic slump in jobs will effect millions of Americans. They wont shed a tear because their brothers best friend died in Iraq. Their going to be shedding them because they cant pull ends meat on their house mortgage.


TROOOOOGDOOOORRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!
Homestarunner

Dude wars have been fought on Iraqi soil for 20k years+ I think it's silly that our (American) government thinks we will change them.

Outsorcing? You are joking right? In case you don't know, which by your post you don't, are economy is switching to where we have more service jobs and not as many manufacturing jobs. So this outsorcing is going to happen there is nothing we can do and its not a problem. People will just be getting more jobs in retail.

Alright dude, serice jobs are IE Menards, Wal mart, movie theaters, MCDONOLDS(lol). Thats what retail is. And it is a problem.
Lets just say for argument clothing line factory outsources to India. This pretend factory employs 2,000 people. They are all layed off and have to find work elsewhere. Lets say in that city maybe and im really stretching this, 1000 people find jobs that sprout out of no where. Are you saying that 1000 commercial jobs will open? That suddenly commercial bussiness's are like, DUDES, that city just lost some major working class, lets take this oppertunity to put some capitol there! If anything commercial jobs will LEAVE that city.
Now many other companies just to compete with pretend company will have to outsource as well. Its a dominoe effect. Lol, so that means that hundreds of CEO's across the nation will take advantage of this job less surge and will go, HOLY CRAP MAN ITS CHRISTMAS AND SANTA LIVES IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY. Then they will move some more mickey d's and some J C Pennys into these slum cities and we will all prosper.
Dude if you think this nation can live off of commercial *retail* jobs then YOU dont know.

Pity, Pity, on the masses of ignorant people
Pity, Pity, on the masses of aggression
Pity, Pity, on the future centuries to come
Bad Religion

Turn on the tv and the news says
-America is doing okay
-ok for the doctors and lawyers
-city officials and our president
-someone forgot to take a survey
-of the real working men
-the ones on the unemployment line
-getting laid off in every state

Tomorrow Belongs To Us- The casualties

Lol I just had to post that one

Don't double post, there is an edit button.

I am not even going to fight about this with you. It would be a one sided fight, and I am not putting forth the effort.

I actually somewhat agree with Hobbes on the outsourcing issue. Is it a major problem? No, but it is an issue that needs to be addressed. I don't think that outsourcing right now is affecting the country too much. It's definitely not harming the common person, in fact it might even be a good thing since it makes things cheaper, but from a certain point of view, it could be a bad thing.

I want to be a programmer when I'm older. Now we all know that India is taking a lot of our programming jobs, and it's certainly reducing the salaries of our future programmers if things stay on the current path. It kind of scares me, but I don't consider it a huge problem. If I looked at it selfishly, then it's a problem, but I think overall it's not too bad, so I guess I kind of agree with both of you. Still, if things stay at the current pace, it's possible that it could become a problem, or so I believe.

If things continue at the current pace it will definatley be a problem. Many American jobs have become extinct due to outsourcing. Call your phone company... yep it's somebody in India on the other line. Also, India and other Asian countries are already leaders in technology and have been for sometime. So they are/will be taking programming jobs at an overwhelming rate. The problem is people in countries like India will not only take jobs involving computers but also nuclear engineering and other fields of science. This will definatley be good for them in the future and America being on the other end won't be in a good way.
The biggest problem in America is the economy in general. It seems that It'll continue to get worse until the end of 2005. Nothing's certain but I still have faith in the country.

Dude it is a problem NOW Mjordan. It is a growing issue but it is a major issue NOW. You have no idea how many losers at my school who want to be programmers just like you. So if you look at it selfishly yeah its a bad thing. But I would prefer someone trying to maintain a job and as most people do after their 30 to look at is selfisly. Because people have a little thing called a family with kids. ANd you say yeah looking at it selfishly. In my mind I think your implying their is a good arguement to this case. As someone america would bennifect if you wouldnt be so selfish.
YOU are america. You buy the goods that keep our economy running. Your the man attending baseball games and watching tv. Alll that costs money that YOU make to give to other people that have jobs that do the exact same thing.
And sheerx says the main probably is our economy in general. ANd the biggest problem to our economy in general is outsourcing, and the loss of jobs and the larger ammount of people of welfare and the backlash of that the lowering ammount that an umemployment check would have.
THe president may be wasting his billions in iraq and wasting billions America doesnt even have. But if our economy was bustling as he makes it out to be that would be a problem but it wouldnt be a catastrophe hes making it to be. More people would have jobs, more people would be paying taxes, and less taxes would be going to welfare

You are also not a moderator, and he was replying to two different posts.

Okay, you're obviously not getting the idea. Lets backtrack a little bit. This country is built on two things: democracy and capitalism, democracy (loosely speaking) being the idea behind our government, and capitalism being the idea behind out economy. Having a democracy normally means that everyone's voice is heard because everyone participates in our government. In our case it's a little different. Everyone's voice still can be heard. It is not a democracy in the strictest form, but if you're a citizen of the United States, your voice can be heard, as evinced by our many great leaders. All you have to do is put a little effort into it. Now, having capitalism means having a free-flowing economy, with little to no government interference. Obviously the government has meddled in our economy some, but for the most part, we're a capitalist society. As I've observed, Americans hold capitalism in quite high esteem vis-a-vis socialism, or communism.

Now, what you're talking about is further interference with that capitalism. Even if your concerns are correct, and America's economy is going down, such government intrustion into the economy could be calamitous. If the government is allowed such uncontrolled power, there's nothing to say it won't abuse that power, as even our government has many times throughout its history. That could quite possibly give the government the power to mold the economy as it sees fit, ergo making it socialist. Now, America was built on ideas. When you take away one of the two basic ideas that America was built on, it ceases to be America. It's just a shell of a country after that. Are you willing to give up America because outsourcing is such a big problem? No! We will stand by what we believe in, democracy and capitalism, and we will either flourish under them, or fall under them. We are a tenacious people. We will not succumb to anything!

Plus, what you're saying isn't even true. Look at our economy. It's not in shambles. In fact, it's slowly increasing. Look at our people. They're not in shambles. We are amongst the most flourishing nation in the world, with no signs of that changing in the near future. Then, how can you say that soutsourcing is a huge problem? I agree it has put a few people out of work, but this is America. If you look hard enough for a job, you will find it. I reiterate, there are no signs that outsourcing is a big problem in America other than the biased newspapers that you read, who's reporters are selfish, and would like to help no other country by the greatness of America. Some of that news is meant to entertain more than to bring you news.

And another thing, in the future, outsourcing will go down. That's usually a trend in the economy. Once enough Indians start getting enough programming jobs, they will demand a higher and higher salary for what they are doing, where eventually it won't be more beneficial to work overseas, but instead, come right back home. You show me some hard evidence that the marketplace has declined due to outsourcing, and I'll consider it as a problem. Otherwise, outsourcing just is. It's not terrible, it's not great, it's just there.

Alot of American Technical jobs are sent out. A while ago I called for some error that kept occuring with AOL, I called their little 1-800 # and this Middle-Eastern sounding man named "charles" answered the phone. I couldn't even talk with this guy, his accent or whatever was shitty as hell, I called back about 5 minutes afterwards and a Middle-eastern sounding woman answered named "Linda". I'm guessing they're paying these immigrants 2.50 an hour for an 8.00 an hour job, but what can you do?

well, what if you were the big business owner, i guarntee u would do the exact same thing, im not saying im agreeing with it im jus saying if u were them, u would do it, i know i would if it would save me millions of dollars

if GUARENTEE that if i were put in that postition id call it a day leave with my hundreds or maybe even millions of dollars and watch my company go bankrupt rather than seeing thousands of families lose their financial support

guarented

Yea, except the companies aren't losing money, they're gaining money, and are, in fact, making jobs for thousands of people overseas.

Oh, and try to write in a more legible manner next time. I had to guess at what the hell you were trying to say.

They're making jobs in other countries but here in the U.S., we're losing jobs. How does that benefit us?

Why is it always all about us? It's not like we're losing so many jobs that it's hitting our economy, and despite outsourcing, you'll find a job if you look hard enough. I don't see how it's a major problem.

The real problem in America is we are being treated like lab rats.

I would say that the real problem with America is outsourcing. However, it really isn't the biggest, most major problem, but it's what's hurting us a lot. We're sending jobs over to other countries for cheaper expenses and payment. The other problem with this is that people are complaining about this, but they're too damn lazy to actually do something to get the job they want. Not all of the people complaining about this are too lazy to get a job, but those people still exist. So, those who don't want to get the job they are complaining about losing, get off your lazy fat ass and actually do something other than complain.

I give up.

Is it you??

alright mates ive been afk for a while

To answer mjordans first ceo loving question, yeah i did put that down under the assumption you would catch what i was saying. And you didnt. I realise that my hypothetical company wouldnt be losing money. Its just had i been put in a position where outsourcing would be the only way to face competition that i would rather see my company crumble and fall to the ground rather then put hundreds of employees out of work.

Second mjordan ceo now ignorant statement. If you try you can get a job. Ok hypothetical company again. Lets say I do face the competition and to compete i outsource my shirt manufacturing company to china. Lets pretend a factory that my american employees work in employs 600 people. They all lose their jobs and are force to find new ones. Peachy mate. They will just do their fucking best to find new ones. Now in this city where my lads work, lets pretend that 400 people find new jobs. The rest are force to go on welfare until they can find jobs elseware.

Now these people who got fired from my shirt company are most likely people who havent had any further education beyond high school. So the only jobs the will most likely be able to find are the menial jobs of a shirt making company and other jobs like it. Use your imagination. These are exactly the sort of jobs that are being outsourced like wildfire. And like i said before to compete other companies have to do likewise and outsource. So if my shirt factory employed 600 people, and 400 found new jobs, and 200 had to go on welfare, that means that a 1/3 ratio is on welfare. So lets mutiply that by the 12,000 my entire company employees minus 1000 paper pushers. Then lets multiply that 11,000 people who lost their jobs by 30 to emcompas the entire united states shirt factory competition that outsourced. Now take one third of that and thats how many people are on welfare.


Now mjordan im not saying its impossible to find a job if you lost them, but if people lose their jobs by the thousands rather than by the dozens the avalible jobs fill up fast. And it will be incredibly harder if you havent had further education. And you most likely wont have had it if your job was being outsourced, since its mainly (and thats chaning) menial jobs that are being outsourced.


And the dude who is talking about the lazy fat asses. There arent that many lazy fat asses as you probably think. A family is also a good incentive to find another job. And above is probably a reason why they cannot find a job.




Soup is good food-(We don't need you any more)
You made a good meal-(We don't need you any more)
Now how do you feel-(We don't need you any more)
To be shit out our ass
And thrown in the cold like a piece of trash
We're sorry
You'll just have to leave
Unemployment runs out after just six weeks
How does it feel to be a budget cut?
You're snipped
You no longer exist ------dead kennedys

I honestly doubt that any reasonable CEO would make that choice. Why? First off, if your company crumbles, the whole purpose of not outsourcing in the first place is defeated. Your company dies, and hundreds of jobs are lost anyway. Secondly, you on a personal note, would be out of a job, and for making a decision as you did, it would be tough to find a job equivalent to the position you were in before. What you're saying is nice, and decent, but it's too idealistic.

That's the way it works. If that's such a major problem, then it includes a huge list of causes, not just outsourcing. For example, lets say company Y is a huge company in New York. It buys out company X in Houston. The employess of company X are then let go, and are forced to find new jobs. It's the way it works. Shall we outlaw company Y's ability to buy company X then? Of course not. It's unfortunate for the X employees, but they can't do anything about it. Eventually, they will find jobs as well.

Plus, I know plenty of new people that are getting into jobs that are supposed to be the major ones being outsourced. Like I said before, it's not a major problem. If it had gone to the extent that you're describing it, then it might be, but it's not.

What?

There's no need for anyone to be on welfare, unless their is some handicap that prevents them from working. Almost all the teenagers in my neighborhood have jobs, I know for a fact that an adult with a high-school diploma could get one.

Obviously the number of jobs being outsourced isn't too bad. As I've stated throughout this thread, your claims would be a lot better supported if you had some sort of hard statistics. As it stands now, statistics almost contradict what you are claiming.


I don't know one unemployed adult. Not one. Obviously there will be some, but that goes whether you have outsourcing or not. The unemployment rates in America aren't too shabby.

I realise its to idealistic, but it would be the choice id make and from what i said its quite obvious that I realised that I would be out a job. Besides your help proving my point. By outsourcing competition has to compete and I actually didnt think of companies buying each other out and letting the people go. But that is just seemingly worse for jobs.

Now stastics dont back my facts? Let me give you and your naive thinking a tad bit of thought. When you lose your job you go on welfare. The computers *aka the stastics* show you as unemployed. Now as soon as the welfare runs out your not considerd unemployed anymore. Your not considerd anything. Your simply ereased from the computers. My family is in social security so I honestly say I got this asnwer about the numbers being wiped from them. See thats the genius of the system. Numbers of unemployment are way lower than in actuallity they are. Take whatever percentile of unemployement your given and mutiply that by about 5.

As for you dont know any unemployed adult, you should get around more often. I volunteer with my church and help homeless and shit is fucking insane. In my city alone entire companies have been wiped. Im not bullshitting. Look up snap on. They outsourced to mexico. The union asked them what they could do to keep their jobs and the answer was work for 4 dollars an hour with no bennifets. Thats quite a drop from 20$ an hour with family dental and medical.

What state do you live in man that you do not know one unemployed adult? Just give me the name and ill look it up for you. But i cannot give you hard stastics because every unemployed person who runs out of checks is ereased virtually from the unemployment lists. And when people get outsourced by the thousands their is jobs open yes, but not nearly enough that is needed.

And what jobs do you know that are being outsourced that people still manage to work in? And hey dude, of course your buddies are going to get jobs. Its industrial and technology that gets outsourced. Not the commercial jobs of running a movie theater or a mcdonolds. Fucking think dude.

Well george bush has been re-elected. Its the end of the democratic party as we know it. ..........Oh yea, this is probably the last day to go to the library or have gay sex. I John...........well i plan to kill 2 birds with one stone.-One of John Stewerts anchor dudes


Dude how misinformed can you be? Where do you live? do you live in new york. Just in my city alone Kenosha, check it out if you think im bullshitting. An entire company got outsourced to

What?

Regardless, statistics still don't back your "facts." Even if what you're saying is true, and the unemployment rates are much higher than I would believe, we both know that their is a direct relationship between the actual number unemployed and the number given as unemployed. What I mean by that is, lets say (for example...these aren't real stats) that in 1980 there was a 10% unemployment rate on paper, and in 1981 there was a 8% unemployment rate on paper, it's safe to say that that there were more people unemployed in 1980 then their were in 1981. You said it yourself -- "multiply that by about 5."

And we both know that outsourcing has severely grown in the past decade. It's a well-known statistic. I could pull it up for you. Now these statistics are from the Employment Development Department, in case you want to look it up. Here are the unemployment rates in December for every year since 1990:

1990: 6.9%
1991: 8.2%
1992: 9.7%
1993: 9.2%
1994: 7.8%
1995: 7.7%
1996: 6.8%
1997: 6.1%
1998: 5.8%
1999: 5.0%
2000: 4.7%
2001: 6.3%
2002: 6.8%
2003: 6.5%
(november) 2004: 5.7%

I see no correlation between the growth in outsourcing and our unemployment rate. In fact, our unemployment rate has dropped slightly since 1990. Either way, those staistics should be enough to go and show you that outsourcing isn't a major factor in our country. We don't even know how, and if it affects our statistics in unemployment or not. If it does, it's such a minute difference that it's hardly worth being considered a "major problem."

Apparently, outsourcing isn't hitting our market place either:

http://fintrend.com/ftf/images/chart...aq20041217.gif

Again -- no correlation between annual return and outsourcing.

Also, your view on how unemployment is calculated is skewed as well. Contrary to your beliefs, there's no central computer that holds this statistic. The Bureau of the Census conducts monthly samples, called Current Population Survey, of about 60,000 homes, and then estimates the labor force, and people unemployed in the nation.

It was more of an exaggeration. I personally don't know anyone unemployed, but I could surely find people if I wanted. There are always hobos you see downtown underneath freeways, who I'm sure don't have jobs. Also, that's the way business is handled. If it's not profitable to the owners, then it is changed, possibly causing people to lose jobs. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate, that's the entire basis of capitalism. If you don't like it, I suggest looking into moving to China. You live in Kenosa, Wisconsin, correct? You're either lying about what that company said, or the employees who are working for $4 an hour are being worked illegaly by Snapon. The minimum wage in Wisconsin is $5.15 an hour.

I live in Texas. As I said before, I could find unemployed people myself, but I'd have to look. I don't know anyone off of the top of my head. Again, unemployment is not calculated on an individual basis. The time and money that process would take is outrageous. I've already given you annual unemployment rates. Outsourcing still happens, but our unemployment rates aren't too shabby. There's certainly no visible correlation between outsourcing and unemployment rates that you could possibly argue your case on.

I'm talking about programmers, slick. Don't make assumptions about me talking about McDonalds workers or people at Movie Theaters.

Listen dude your getting off subject and not hitting the point.

First off lets hit your stock exchange stastics. Man how would stock exchange be effected by outsourcing at all? Of course stocks will go up, the company is doing better dude. If a company outsourced its jobs the stocks will go up because its cutting expenses and profits are up. So lets just void your nice little chart their. *hey look guys I have a chart of how tall my plants grew each year, and here is another thing off topic*

And when I said unemployment lists, I was being very general. I very much just ment stastics in generall. Now you say a cenus of 60,000 homes. Lets judge this bit of information a bit. The cenus buruea will come to a home if its populated and judge if its owners are unemployed. Now lets put this into layman terms, always liked this way more.

Thats what jacked up way for doing things.

Lets pretend I lost my jobs and im on welfare for a couple of months and for 2 months this beura counts me as unemployed. The system works. Now after these checks run out lets say I miss my house payments twice and then I lose the house. For those 4 months yeah, im considered unemployed. But from what im guessing this cenus does is as soon as I lose my house im no longer taken into their statisical unemployment rates. Im not taken into any statics at all aside from how well ill do at a homeless shelter. These representives of the beureau go house to house to check if people are unemployed or not. Dude you need money to keep the house of course you have a job. Do you think they count the guy panhandling outside the bar? The family in a shelter or the "hobos" who end up living under the railyard. It is almost as if their doing their best to give the impression that everyone is employed. Lol oh yeah, they are.

And dude i am NOT LIEING about what happened at snapon. I know people who worked their and its crap is true. IF YOU happened to be reading I said it got outsourced to mexico and the people who are working in MEXICO are getting paid 4 dollars an hour. Not in wisconsin. THe employee's union just happened to want to keep their jobs and wanted to know how they could keep it. The only way to compete with the outsourcing was to work for 4 dollars an hour with no bennifeits. Of course they couldnt, they were even restricted by law because of the minimum wage jobs. So their 20+ jobs with bennifets was outsourced to mexico. And its "Kenosha". Look it up sometime.
>>Dude I live in kenosha saying im lieing, mad style harsh<<

And talking about programmers. Every single major company left in the United states, small business's, grocery stores, even high schools have to have programmers to manage and run their companies, business establishment, etc. Your talking about a grounded job that is almost impossible to leave the states. Its secure. I know people who write their own programs to assure they keep their job while doing the most minimal work possible.<<awsome.

Those computer programmer jobs have no weight at all because virtuall all of them have to be done in the states.

But you want to know some high tech jobs that are? Some things that are being outsourced mate? Check this out, what I had to learn myself because statiscs misinterpet the state of a nation.

Microsoft has quietly been moving high-level jobs on dozens of its most cutting-edge projects from the United States to India. The projects include .NET Application Security, Windows Server 2003 Update, and the next version of Microsoft Windows --- codename "Longhorn". Kristi Heim, Contra Costa Times, from knowledgemanagement.ittoolbox.com, 7/29/04; Brier Dudley, CRMbuyer.com, 7/29/04]
Link it to read full article

The Economic Times reports that India is no longer just a business process outsourcing (BPO) hub for back-office operations, which provided entry-level jobs. Now, "more and more firms are setting up high-end technical back office support operations in India to serve their global customers. According to NASSCOM [the National Association of Software and Service Companies, a trade association of Indian high tech firms], [the] US will outsource 6 million high tech jobs to India by 2005 as there is no dearth of highly qualified technical professionals in the country." [Economic Times, economictimes.indiatimes.com, 8/11/04]

6 million jobs will have been outsourced by tommorow in the high tech field. Lets put that into a statistic >:)

The article reports that "Britain's GlaxoSmithKline, German drug maker Bayer, Aventis of France, and US-based Pfizer Inc are some of the companies that have already begun outsourcing work to India. In five years, Indian firms are expected to be earning annual revenues of $5 billion from outsourcing biotechnology-related services", according to Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw, the head of the Association of Biotech Led Enterprises, an Indian trade association.

Shaw told the AP that "We see outsourcing in this area growing exponentially over the next few years and giving us the same success that India had in software." [S. Srinvasan, The Associated Press, 8/11/04]

5 billion dollars in research. Man bet some americans scientists wish they hadnt wasted their cash on a masters degree in college.

Dont worry tho, the white house has assured us that these outsourcing will continue

From the New York Times: "Secretary of State Colin L. Powell ... sought to assure Indians [on 3/16/04] that the Bush administration would not try to halt the outsourcing of high-technology jobs to their country. In discussions with Indian leaders and college students, Mr. Powell found that the issue of the transfer of American jobs to India by leading technology companies was as emotional in India as in the United States. But whereas American politicians have deplored the loss of such jobs, it was clear that the anxiety in India focuses on threats by some members of Congress to try to stop the transfer by legislation."

hmm colin powel you lied to the UN and now you help backstab the american working force? BAD COLIN, BAD, go to your room no dinner!

The Indio-US Joint Business Council, comprised of executives from India and the US, has proposed a new free trade agreement in the services sector which would cost millions more Americans their jobs.

According to The Gulf Daily News, reporting a story in the Business Standard, "the deal would relax visa restrictions on the movement of Indian engineers, software programmers, scientists, accountants and other professions [from India] to the US. India in turn would have to open up to US players its retail, legal, accounting and other sectors which have largely fought against allowing foreign competition."

What is particularly scary about this proposal is that our US Trade negotiators will likely find that this would be a fabulous way to help the stock price of the Fortune 500!

>>>Whats this outsourcing helps the stocks further mooting the correlation between outsourcing and stocks going down? Outsourcing helps stocks go up you say?<<<<lol

The proposal is now being considered by India's Trade office, but it has not yet reached the desk of Trade and Industry Minister Kamal Nath, according to the reports. [Gulf Daily News, 8/8/04, gulf-daily-news.com]

See mate just dont eat what they give you. Just take a closer look at these "statistics"

Pity
, pity, for all the billions of ignorant people -Bad religion