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-   -   Round 2! Cloud vs Ness (http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23362)

!King_Amazon! 2003-10-23 06:26 AM

Cloud can fly? This I remember not.

Anyway, yes, Cloud is damn hard on Kingdom Hearts, he's fast, he's agile, he's everything you've been describing him as.

Raziel 2003-10-23 06:34 AM

That's if he's actually capable of flight. You mentioned earlier that you thought he was. Even so, Ness is capable of midair dodges (like all SSBM characters) that make him immune to damage for a second or two. Plus, Ness has abilities to block damn near anything Cloud throws at him. If Ness needs to get away to regroup, he can use Teleport to get himself away from Cloud quickly. If he needs defense from physical damage, he uses PK Shield and it cuts the damage in half and relects some of it back at Cloud. He's just more versatile.

Senesia 2003-10-23 11:54 AM

Actually Cloud is also in Ehrgeiz: God Bless The Ring, which is a fighting game, by Square.

!King_Amazon! 2003-10-23 12:39 PM

Yeah I remember that, but he was a pussy in that game.

Kuja 2003-10-23 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raziel
That's if he's actually capable of flight. You mentioned earlier that you thought he was.

Yeah it does say at gamefaqs.com that he can fly and if you search for image of cloud on KH you will see wing on his back.
Anyway id like if someone that played KH could confirm that he can fly.

!King_Amazon! 2003-10-23 08:33 PM

I played(and own) Kingdom Hearts, and I honestly don't remember anything about cloud flying.

Kuja 2003-10-23 10:50 PM

Taken directly from Gamefaqs.com

Cloud

Boss Fight
Cloud
==========

Refer to the previous Cloud strategy for details on how to defeat him.
Keep in mind that Cloud can fly this time around. You get the Metal Chocobo keychain for defeating him.



If you want you can go directly to the Walkthrough
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/f...m_hearts_d.txt
Once load press ctrl+f and paste this: Cloud can fly this time around


It will bring you directly to where it mention his flying ability.

Kuja 2003-10-24 02:50 AM

Well even if i never had any doubt for gamefaqs.com
Some of you might have.
So i decided to search for a diff. trusted site whit the proof again that he can fly.


Taken from IGN
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/373/373152p1.html


When Cloud flies....then it'll really hit the fan, it is sorta hard to attack him while flying so he is some what invincible.

Bye-Bye Ness

Raziel 2003-10-24 03:45 AM

Well, there's one quick solution for that. PK Paralysis. *zap* No more flying for Cloud for a little while. If he stays airborne, there's not really any way he can attack Ness, considering he doesn't have much in the way of long-range attacks. He'd be paralyzed for a while, and in that time, Ness would destroy him.

Kuja 2003-10-24 04:30 AM

Does PK Paralysis actualy work on boss ?
Cause if it work only on those puny monster you find a little everywhere Cloud wouldnt even be affected by it.

Raziel 2003-10-24 05:14 AM

On some bosses, yes. The fact that Cloud can be paralyzed by normal monsters in FF7 is proof enough of the fact that Ness would be capable of doing the same thing.

Kuja 2003-10-24 06:45 AM

There is no monster that can paralyse in ff7.
The only possibles paralyse are achieved by Cloud 2nd level 1 Limit Break or by using the item Dazers.
It is the main reason why ff7 contain no item that prevent or cure paralyse.

Raziel 2003-10-24 07:17 AM

Even then, under those conditions, Cloud would still be susceptible to paralysis. Why? Because Ness' Paralysis attack isn't magically based, it's psychically based. If Cloud has a brain, Ness can disrupt the electrical commands sent to his limbs. It's a matter of willpower, and remember, Cloud is partially insane. His will is pretty fragile as it is.

Kuja 2003-10-24 03:40 PM

Yes cloud is partially insane but that could turn on his favor mostly considering he his because of alteration to his mind.
Making his mind working differantly then normal ppl.
It would actualy give him an advantage over Ness psychic ability.

Raziel 2003-10-24 10:54 PM

And how do you figure that? His mind was proven to be susceptible to suggestion very easily throughout all of FF7. Sephiroth used his weak mind to control him (along with the Jenova cells in his body), he mutated his own memories into a false history and was constantly having flashbacks and fragmentation of his consciousness. Sephiroth's ability to screw with his mind is proof enough that he is very vulnerable to mental attacks.

Kuja`s #1 2003-10-24 11:15 PM

Ok, I see some flaws here.

Cloud did not cause anything. HE WAS a low ranking shinra soldier. ZACK was the SOLDIER First Class that accompanied Sephiroth to Nibelheim.

There was some mosters that could paralyze in FF7. I can't exactly remember what they were called but I remember fighting them in the Batlle Arena. They use an attack where they like blow leaves or something on you. You fall in to paralysis for a low ammount of time. You may not believe me, but I SWEAR TO GOD that I speak the truth.

Kuja 2003-10-24 11:42 PM

Actualy the only reason he can control Cloud and He can control Jenova too is Because the J-Cell make *Ancient* also called Cetra they hear the lifestream ! Sephiroth is able to actualy difuse his will in the lifestream unlike other *Ancient*. Else he would have no power over Cloud.

Cloud levitated up all the way to the top and he is actually controlled
by Sephiroth.

Rufus: Who... was that?

Hojo: He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing. Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream. He wants to manipulate the Clones itself.

And well after you read that you will understand how his power is very mighty in FF7. And that Jenova isnt that much other then a Cell donor heh.


Note : Check gamefaqs.com you can find out about the monster in battle arena and im sure you will remember that none have paralyse and nor do i remember any. You must be confused whit the spell *confuse* heh.

Kuja`s #1 2003-10-24 11:51 PM

Uh...no. I know the difference between Confuse and Paralyze.

Paralyze: Prevents the opponent fhrom taking any action.

Confuse: Forces the opponent to fire spells or attack physically wildly. Only way to remove it without using an item is to attack the person with a phsical attack. Best to use this status on a magic opponent.

I remember it. You do get paraliezed. It uses this little leaves blowingto you and you get knocked over. Then when you stand up, you automatically(if your not immune to paralysis) kneel down and are not able to move for several turns. AND NO it is not sleep. There are no little zzzs over your head.

Kuja 2003-10-25 12:03 AM

lol dude tell me how can you be imune to paralysis ?
And dude kneel down is actualy the spell SLEEP.

Kuja`s #1 2003-10-25 12:15 AM

I repeat NO ZZZZ!!!!!

You can have an accessory to prevent it like Ribbon or something.

Kuja 2003-10-25 12:57 AM

Bring me the proof other then hum it s somewhere. There is an actualy reason why there is no item to cure paralyse and no item against paralyse. It s cause it s not there.

Titusfied 2003-10-25 09:37 AM

Yes it is:

http://www.kuponut.com/index.html?il...ster_list.html

Cokatolis - Petrify Smog
Gigighandi - Stone Stare
Gargoyle - Petrify
Slaps - Paralyzer Needle

Check it for yourself if you want. I went through the list very fast, so there may be others as well, but I happen to of caught these in my skim.

Raziel 2003-10-25 10:53 AM

Well, that certainly makes this battle a ton different. I'll tell you why.

Since it's now been proven thet Cloud is susceptible to paralysis, the fight is over. Even if Cloud can paralyze Ness, he'd have to use Cross Slash, and that's a short-range attack which would be particularly hard for Cloud to land. On top of that, Ness can continue to use PK while paralyzed, therefore allowing him to use his powers to heal himself. Cloud is basically helpless until cured.

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:03 AM

Well, if Cloud was in the game by himself, there is no doubt in my mind that paralysis wouldn't be allowed, for obvious reasons. The fact that FF games are meant for a 3 character development type of game, there must be certain downfalls to the characters, after all, it is only fair for this type of gaming style. If Cloud was a single character featured in a game, which is the way we should be thinking about it, there is no way he could possibly be suseptible to Ness's mental prowess.

Raziel 2003-10-25 11:07 AM

And how do you justify that? Ness is from an RPG as well, and he's in a multiple-person party configuration throughout 99% of the game. He just has an advantage in this situation that Cloud doesn't

Kuja`s #1 2003-10-25 11:15 AM

Well Petrify is different from paralysis.

Cloud was easy to manipulate because of the Jenova Cells inside him. Ness can't do that.

Ness's mind powers are formidable though. I have always prefered characters with special powers to braun and muscle characters. So I'm just assuming that Cloud's mental defenses would be to weak to fight off Ness

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:16 AM

I just don't think you are giving Cloud's mental state enough justification. You talk about how Ness will just send signals to his brain and render him useless, but thats horse shit as well. How do you justify that?

Raziel 2003-10-25 11:18 AM

As is the case here. Cloud isn't immune to Ness' attacks because it's takes an extraordinarily durable mind to withstand attacks like those, and Cloud doesn't have that.

On top of that, Ness doesn't even have to attack his mind directly. He's got enough straightforward PK attacks to simply overwhelm Cloud in every way possible. The only advantage Cloud has is offensive. Ness has all of his bases covered.

Edit: 
I didn't once say that Ness would just "send signals to his brain and fuck him up." Read my posts more thoroughly, Titus.

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:21 AM

Heh, I just don't buy that Ness has all his bases covered. If Cloud's offense isn't formidable enough, and if Ness can overwhelm him that easily, Ness can't possibly win. Ness can't control Cloud that easy. Ness can't hurt Cloud enough to render him useless. Ness doesn't stand a chance.

Raziel 2003-10-25 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titusfied
If Cloud's offense isn't formidable enough, and if Ness can overwhelm him that easily, Ness can't possibly win.

That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:28 AM

Hah, you know what I meant though, I guess I was just a little rushed. I meant that if that were the case, there is no way he could possibly lose. Ass.

Oh, and this is what I was referring to:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raziel
Even then, under those conditions, Cloud would still be susceptible to paralysis. Why? Because Ness' Paralysis attack isn't magically based, it's psychically based. If Cloud has a brain, Ness can disrupt the electrical commands sent to his limbs. It's a matter of willpower, and remember, Cloud is partially insane. His will is pretty fragile as it is.


Raziel 2003-10-25 11:35 AM

That's just one of my points, Titus. And it's a pretty damn good one at that. Ness just has more abilities at his disposal than Cloud does. He has the advantages of having immense destructive capabilites that he inherited from an RPG as well as having incredible maneuverability and face-to-face combat abilities from an arcade fighter.

Now, if Ness' PK was stripped from him entirely, he would lose, end of story. He would be a fat kid with a baseball bat. His power is in his psychic abilities, and they are powerful enough to cause an insane amount of damage.

One way or another, all of the votes are in, and a winner has been chosen. Please make your way to the Bracket Thread for the winner announcement!

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raziel
Edit: 
I didn't once say that Ness would just "send signals to his brain and fuck him up." Read my posts more thoroughly, Titus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raziel
Even then, under those conditions, Cloud would still be susceptible to paralysis. Why? Because Ness' Paralysis attack isn't magically based, it's psychically based. If Cloud has a brain, Ness can disrupt the electrical commands sent to his limbs. It's a matter of willpower, and remember, Cloud is partially insane. His will is pretty fragile as it is.

I just had to point that out. For someone that has harsh words towards other reading capabilities, your memory is evidently quite short.

Raziel 2003-10-25 11:42 AM

You're twisting my words, Titus and not reading everything I've posted. That quote was a counter-argument, explaining why Cloud would have no real defense against Ness' PK Paralysis because it's not magical. There's a lot more to Ness' attacks than "just sending signals and fucking up an opponent's brain."

Titusfied 2003-10-25 11:46 AM

Hah, of course there is more to it... You are trying to undermine your own words and misconstrue them so as to make it look as though I didn't understand them. I was just pointing out that you specifically said, you haven't once said anything of the sort, and I simply pointed out you did.

Of course I trivialized my statement. You knew what I meant. I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain that Cloud doesn't just chop chop chop and cut cut cut his opponents. His tactics, as well as Ness's are obviously more conplex than we sometimes make them out to be.

Edit: 
Oh, and I don't know why you keep quoting it like that, making it sound so dumb, because I didn't say that. I said he would send signals to his brain and render him useless, not that the signals would "fuck him up"...

Raziel 2003-10-25 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titusfied
You talk about how Ness will just send signals to his brain and render him useless

Those were your exact words. You were telling me that my only argument was that Ness would "render him useless" with PK. The fact is, that's all that Ness would have needed.


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