Jehovah's Witnesses

[KagomJack]

This thread is being made for Kyeruu. I will not flame and I will not name-call. I will post things from their ideology that I remember to the best of my ability. I will also post a little bit about translations. This will be short, mind you, so please bear with me. I am rusty in terms of other religions since I'm no longer a Catholic apologist, so I will point out if I don't remember something clearly and you are more than welcome to correct me.

First thing I'd like to bring up: The creation of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The JWs were originally created by a man named Charles Taze Russell. He was originally a Presbyterian, but joined the Seventh Day Adventists when he went back to religion, leading many Bible studies. Eventually he split from them with his own ideas and would later go on to found his own group, the Zion's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Later on he'd go on to reinterpret the Bible, following closely to the Catholic version of the Bible with is own additions and revisions. He eventually died in 1916. His position was taken over by "Judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford (the "Judge" bit given to him by people because of his background in Law). Eventually under Rutherford's reign as president there'd be a split and the group loyal to him would reform themselves as the Jehovah's Witnesses (circa 1931). Personal points I'd like to bring up was that many saw Russell as a con artist and were distrustful of him and how he would handle things with the Zion's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

Next thing I want to bring up is translation: Russell claimed to be able to translate ancient Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. In reality all he did was take the Bible and make some changes and additions and revisions as he saw fit, but even to this very day the JWs will claim that he was able to truly translate things the way they are written. The biggest mistake they make is in the Greek word "logos," which means "the word." I can't recall everything about how it's mistranslated and defended, but they take it to be multiple "words."

Prophecies: Russell predicted there'd be a cataclysmic and celestial war in 1914 that would signify the end of the world. After waiting for the end to occur in that time, it never did, so they had to change their story and continually change the end time date.

Other miscellaneous things I'd like to bring up: They believe that Jesus and Satan are actually brothers. They deny the Trinity, a belief held dear by much of mainstream Christianity. As for salvation, well, they believe only 144,000 will truly be allowed into heaven and as far as that goes, the first 144,000 would technically already have been saved and in heaven now.

For other things, I can only refer you to these sites: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm and http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j02.html

It's better informed and has more information than I have. I'm quite rusty in my knowledge of the JWs, but I hope this was still a bit interesting and informing.

As for my personal opinion of them (since this is Debate AND Opinion): I simply believe they are a cult. They don't allow blood transfusions, regardless of the consequences and circumstances, they hold far-out beliefs as far as Trinity and Jesus goes, and they are very cruel with their disfellowshipping.

[!King_Amazon!]

Just a note, Logos means more than just "the word." It DOES mean lots of things.

According to my Philosophy book, it means "the word," "intelligence," "speech," "discourse," "thought," "reason," "meaning," "study of," "the record of," "the science of," "the fundamental principles of," "the basic principles and procedures of a particular discipline," "those features of a thing that make it intelligible to us," and "the rationale for a thing."

[KagomJack]

The sense in that it was being used, however, is "the word." They try to interpret it as "the words." Otherwise I'm aware of the fact that there's multiple translations/definitions for logos.

[hotdog]

Instead of refering to books that potheads wrote you should go to Greece and ask them I am pretty damned sure a Greek knows his own language.

[Vollstrecker]

Instead of refering to books that potheads wrote you should go to Greece and ask them I am pretty damned sure a Greek knows his own language.

Probably just as well as the average American knows his language.

[KagomJack]

There is a difference between Ancient Greek and modern Greek, hotdog.

[Willkillforfood]

I'm trying to think up something witty and I'm just drawing a blank, hooker.

[KagomJack]

That's nice and all, but what are your opinions about Jehovah's Witnesses? Do you know something I don't and wish to correct me?

Kyeruu, post here. I'm not gonna bash you or call you names or anything.

[Willkillforfood]

I'm friends with some. They're good guys. I don't think they got to celebrate birthdays or anything, but he told me this in like elementary school so I may be wrong.

[KagomJack]

They don't get to celebrate any holiday or birthdays. I'm not saying they can't be good people or anything, but I've never had positive experiences with them.

[Lenny]

We've got a couple of JW neighbours, and they don't even put up a Christmas tree. Sad, really. :(

[KagomJack]

Like I said, they don't celebrate any holiday. I forget why, though.

[Willkillforfood]

Because Charlie's everywhere.

[kyeruu]

um kagom, where you got that info about us, well, why don't you go to watchtower.org, that's the official site of us JW, you'll get more info (accurate for that matter) about us, our beliefs, and everything.

Why don't we celebrate holidays? well, that depends on which holiday your turning to, we have reasons for each one, and i can't answer them ALL cause it'll take too much of my prescious time ( that's right i do other things, helpfull things in my life, as much as a lie as that sounds)

i'll start with birthdays, since you probably all know, we JW base our beliefs completely in the bible, has in from gen, 1.1 to the end of revelations.

Our beliefs state that the bible is jehova's words, and so we must follow them. The bible only mentions 2 birth days, in those 2 births days, assassinations occured, so basic logic says, that if god wanted us to celebrate birthdays, then he would've put good things about b days in the bible instead of assassinations, i know, some of you might think: "but what does 2 assassinations have to do with you guys?" well we know it's a little vague, but we want to be in clean with Jehova, and if he mentions bad things about b days, then we wont' celebrate, to be on the safe side.

[KagomJack]

Great dodging skills there. Thank you at least for answering the birthday matter. And no, the information I received is rather accurate.

[kyeruu]

regardless, feel free to ask about anything else.

[KagomJack]

I want you to address the points I've already brought up. The only one you bothered to touch was birthdays. Dodging won't make it go away.

[Vollstrecker]

I've actually always wondered why birthdays were celebrated, and especially with gifts, since it seems it would be blasphemous to put your child's day of birth on par with that of Christ.

[!King_Amazon!]

Christ can suck mah bawls, I want gifts.

[Vollstrecker]

I agree, but it does feel backwards for the Christians.

[!King_Amazon!]

Most Christians are pretty fucking backwards. They claim to have knowledge of the bible yet a large majority of them don't know shit.

[hotdog]

Last time I read the bible I got the impression that Christ was born in the summer. I mean who sheperds their flock in the winter? Anyways I always wondered why religious groups objected to anything I think they are just a large gathering of party poopers.

[KagomJack]

Who knows why. Maybe to celebrate the fact that they were given life and brought into this world from the womb on that day. Maybe it has Pagan roots that were borrowed like a few holidays.

By the way, kyeruu, I'm still waiting for your response.

And what do the rest of you know about Jehovah's Witnesses?

[hotdog]

And what do the rest of you know about Jehovah's Witnesses?

I know nothing but my friend is a JW and he knows so much about it that I am surprised he isn't a bishop or something. Anyways I am trying to get him to join and post since he is one of the few religous people I can stand being around because he isn't a zealot.

On that zealot note I think I will try to find my other friend as well he is with another religion but he also knows a lot about it and is not a zealot. His input on some of the religion threads would probably be more than welcomed by mj since he is the only person I know that can stand toe to toe? Or should I say brain to brain? With mj probably.

[KagomJack]

I'm always thrown off when I meet JWs who aren't zealots...well...to that note I know none.

[hotdog]

You think your surprised?! We had two meeting halls and a whole 4 neigboorhoods full of them and I was about to have a heart attack when I finally learned that he was a JW. Especially since he didn't push any points or even talk about it unless it was brought up. Two years of me not knowing his religion until I asked to accompany him one morning when he and his sister were talking about it.

[KagomJack]

Heh. I'm sure that, much like Christianity, there are very lax groups of JWs. But a lot of them, however, aren't. You should ask about disfellowshipping.

[Vault Dweller]

My only experience with a JW was a kid in my homeroom in highschool. He stood with his back to the flag each morning during the pledge. Aside from that, he seemed like your average disaffected teenage fuckup.

[!King_Amazon!]

I'd prefer Jehovah's Witnesses to Mormons, though. At least Jehovah's Witnesses won't take blood transfusions so they just die.

[D3V]

"JW's" are bible thumpers like the rest of religions, except they have "Watchtower" their weekly reading of bullshit. My cousins are JW's, I don't believe any of their shit.

[Lenny]

We get that through the door every month. It's not even of a fire-lighting quality. :(

[KagomJack]

I think the one thing I dislike the most about JWs is the disfellowshipping. It's just horrible to do that to people.

[D3V]

:grin: We get that through the door every month. It's not even of a fire-lighting quality. :(

We used to get relentlessly harassed by the same Caravan of this same fucking family about 3-4 years ago, and finally me and my brother got sick of it one day when these asshats interrupted us watching the jaguars game so I told them to get the fuck off of our property, and they said that we need to accept their religion and a bunch of other bullshit, and my brother walks behind me and we get ready to get them off of our property forcefully and they start to leave,.. and as they're walking back I reach back inside and grab one of those grill lighters and light the watch tower catch after a few seconds, and yelled "YEAH WATCH THIS TOWER, LMAO!!"

It was pretty awesome, they drove away in horror, and never had them coming to our door anymore :)

[Willkillforfood]

Most scholars agree that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th =P. It's a bastardization of a pagan festival if I remember right.

[!King_Amazon!]

Most scholars agree that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th =P. It's a bastardization of a pagan festival if I remember right.
Yes, that is correct.

[hotdog]

I thought it was about a man who defied the dutch berghers but okay pagan it is!

FYI I never even stood or looked at the flag when they did the pledge.

Reasons.

A: I will not resort to nationalism no matter what word they dress it up with.
B: I will not pledge my loyalty to anyone who does not in turn pledge theirs to me. Make a pledge to me and recite it every time I recite yours and you got a deal.
C: It is a complete waste of time. I can see doing it once in your lifetime but everyday is too excessive.
D: I do not believe that even if there were some supreme power out there that it would support only one country, and the most fucked up country at that.
E: I didn't believe a word in that crap was true. Brave, justice, free? I don't think so. Not american qualities. In fact white people have finally started oppressing other white people. Maybe they could add land of the oppressive instead?

Those were my reasons. I wouldn't mind doing the pledge if my conditions were met though...

[Willkillforfood]

You need to go serve in the military. I may take things for granted but not nearly as much as you =P.

[hotdog]

I did serve in the military. In fact I was even in other countries and have friends who serve in those countries. Israel, Germany, England, China, and Japan.

Not one of them believes in nationalism and those stories about China are like 30 years old. They are hunting down the reamining Redguard as we speak. They even have foresting going on now to get rid of those sandstorms.

Oh yes I forgot to add...even though I served I didn't come back crazy or upset I joined knowing it was a situation called "You or him". Also I am not some wuss that cries about things that is part of my mental disability and the only reason why I got so far with the army. They knew killing people was not hard for me. Too bad I barely got to shoot anyone it was already over by the time I got there almost every time because those blasted snipers almost always kill them first.

[kyeruu]

ok ok whoa whoa! For a simple thing, lenny, d3v, and anyone who thinks we Jw suck, why are you treating us JW that way? if your mad cause we wake you up in th emorning then tell us not to come in the morning we'll coem in the after noon, and if youdont' like it when we talk to you tell us not to come back! we;ll just skip your house for like 3-5 months or so, and if a JW comes by it'll be by accident apologize and leave!

[kyeruu]

as for kagom, i'll answer a few things, with info from the original JW website

When did Jehovah's Witnesses have their modern-day start? (1)
How are meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses conducted? (2)
How are expenses cared for? (3)
Who takes the lead in each congregation? (4)
What larger meetings are held each year? (5)
What work is done at their headquarters and branch offices? (6)

1. Jehovah's Witnesses had their modern-day start in the 1870's. At first, they were called Bible Students. But in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah's Witnesses. (Isaiah 43:10) From small beginnings the organization has grown to millions of Witnesses, who are busy preaching in more than 230 lands.

2. Most congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses have meetings three times each week. You are invited to attend any of these. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) The Bible is the basis for what is taught. Meetings are opened and closed with prayer. Heartfelt "spiritual songs" are also sung at most meetings. (Ephesians 5:18, 19) Admission is free, and no collections are taken.—Matthew 10:8.





3. Most congregations hold meetings in a Kingdom Hall. These are usually simple structures built by Witness volunteers. You will not see any images, crucifixes, or things like these at the Kingdom Hall. Expenses are paid for by voluntary donations. For those who wish to make a donation, there is a contribution box.—2 Corinthians 9:7.

4. In each congregation, there are elders, or overseers. They take the lead in teaching in the congregation. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; 5:17) They are assisted by ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:8-10, 12, 13) These men are not elevated above the rest of the congregation. (2 Corinthians 1:24) They are not given special titles. (Matthew 23:8-10) They do not dress differently from others. Neither are they paid for their work. The elders willingly look after the spiritual needs of the congregation. They can provide comfort and guidance in times of trouble.—James 5:14-16; 1 Peter 5:2, 3.

5. Jehovah's Witnesses also hold large assemblies or conventions each year. At these times many congregations come together for a special program of Bible instruction. Baptism of new disciples is a regular part of each assembly or convention program.—Matthew 3:13-17; 28:19, 20.

6. The world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses is in New York. Located there is the Governing Body, a central group of experienced elders who oversee the worldwide congregation. There are also over 100 branch offices around the world. At these locations, volunteers help to print and ship Bible literature.

[KagomJack]

That's fine and dandy and all, but I want you to address the points I brought up. And the JWs were originally called the "Watchtower and Tract Society" until Rutherford took over and a schism took place.

So quit dancing around and address my points.

[kyeruu]

listen you say that info you got is accurate, but it's not! the orignal website is watchtower.org, other ex JW and apostates, make up these site, because even though it's nt known to public alot, there is a group claiming to be JW, that base their knowledge on personal beliefs not the bible itself, and those site are eVERYWERe, which is why i'm not answering, because the info you got is from some useless website, first and furthermore we're not a cult becuase we don't follow 1 guy we have a system of 6 elders who base all decisions completely on the bible, secondly we don't collect money, heck we dont' even ask it, you can give us if you want, but its your choice, not ours,
and the site says cult reason why it's a lie, we're not a cult!
second the other site is aposlogetic w/e! we're not making a site that basically means end of the world ARE U CRAZY?!

if you go to the original site, you can get WAY more accurate info and less fake stuff. (i'm not sure i fit's fake but i prefer you went to watchtower.org)
i'm not baptized yet, up until my knowledge i'm not authorized to answer those questions becuase i honestly dont' know how. an elder would answer in a better way though.

[Lenny]

If someone wakes me up in the morning and refuses to go away, then it's fine by me. My window overlooks the front door, and my air rifle is propped up against my wardrobe. That'll learn 'em, as some may say.

I couldn't care less about having to answer the door - I'll either tell them to go away, or just not open it. It's more the fact that Jehova's Witnesses attempt to force their beliefs on us that annoys me, and probably everyone else.

If we gived half a rats arse about your beliefs and wanted them as our own, then don't you think we'd already be Jehova's Witnesses?

[KagomJack]

Look, you're going to believe the Watchtower is correct and I'm not going to believe they are. Simply address my points and debunk what I said. I see no reason why you can't simply do that.

And most of the information I got is from historical documentations and other books that weren't touched by former JWs in any sort of way. I want you to understand that first and foremost. The reason I gave the sites is because they touched on issues I don't recall as well. You don't know if it's done by former JWs or "apostates" as you constantly call them.

You can't defend your own religion and answer questions simply because you aren't baptized? That's a really sad notion and seems to hint a bit at control. Just answer them to the best of your ability. If you can't answer anything, then just simply state "I do not know the answer or the rebuttal." I won't press you any further. But the way you're going on about how "WE'RE NOT A CULT!" and "I can't answer your questions because I'm not baptized" makes me think you're just trying to dodge the points made.

There is a reason I'm not going to the Watchtower and that's because I want to hear what YOU have to say and to see how well you know your own faith and history, which it's looking to be you don't.

[Vollstrecker]

Most scholars agree that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th =P. It's a bastardization of a pagan festival if I remember right.

It most obviously was, the debate is which one. =P

Yule I think is the biggest contender, but there are tons of holidays right around the Winter Solstice.

[kyeruu]

how many times have i said this, what your asking me is wrong kagom, i cannnot give you my opinion over my religion, my beliefs go against it, it's what the bible says, BAM, if your REAlly that intent on finding out our past, go to the original site and see for your self, telling youi my opinions and arguing over it, is a pathetic waste of time, not to mentiont it's agaisnt my beliefs.

[KagomJack]

Cop-out. A fucking pussy-ass, yellow-livered cop-out. You can't even defend your own beliefs, so you have to refer to a site. A person who truly cares about their faith will defend it to the best of their abilities and admit when they can't answer a question or a point. I'm done with this. You're proving that they have a control over their members and it's a control that is very much a dirty, dirty thing.

I want you to understand something, kyeruu. I have debated religion with many people across many different stages of my life, from when I was agnostic, from when I was Catholic, to now as I am a deist. Learn something about your own faith and don't let their rules interfere with you trying to defend anything. If anything, it makes you look like a sheep and that you're weak.

[!King_Amazon!]

how many times have i said this, what your asking me is wrong kagom, i cannnot give you my opinion over my religion, my beliefs go against it, it's what the bible says, BAM, if your REAlly that intent on finding out our past, go to the original site and see for your self, telling youi my opinions and arguing over it, is a pathetic waste of time, not to mentiont it's agaisnt my beliefs.
It's too bad your beliefs aren't to "not believe bullshit", same with other religions. I wish I could live a life of ignorance and be happy with it.

[Willkillforfood]

It most obviously was, the debate is which one. =P

Yule I think is the biggest contender, but there are tons of holidays right around the Winter Solstice.

I'd think Yule myself also.

[KagomJack]

One more thing I want to add: what's with this abuse crap I hear about JWs? Can you answer that or are you forbidden to answer that question too?

Referencing: http://silentlambs.org/

[kyeruu]

ooh that site, huh... well honestly that happened out of my knowledge of reach, but communicating with the JW there in usa, it's well.....

logically, it's a way for someone to use us to get money.
religiosly, it's another of the bibles prophecies being fullfilled, the world will hate us because of Jesus, or in other words, because we do what god wants us to do then we will be hated by the world. capish?

[KagomJack]

Not capice. The Catholics had a major child sex abuse scandal. They said the same damn thing. Your wacky little cult was caught actually abusing kids and then I read this from you.

Seriously, pull your head from the clouds and look at the big picture. I don't hate Jehovah's Witnesses because they love Jesus. I got a lot of friends who love Jesus. They're great people in my opinion. I just hate how JWs are so cultish and controling. Capice?

[kyeruu]

um, forgot to mention this, there's this cult (which i forgot the name) who go around as JW but actually they're not, they were JW, they studied and started thinking they knew more than the bible and made their own publications and stuff all claiming to be JW, and they can be very convincing.

[HandOfHeaven]

I threw a half full cherry coke cup at two today. They were pissed.

[KagomJack]

No, these are Jehovah's Witnesses. They have Watchtower publications and pretty much want you to come to the Kingdom Hall and serve Jehovah. Stop trying to make excuses.

By the way! My manager at work is a former Jehovah's Witness. She called bullshit on you not being able to answer questions because you aren't baptized.

[kyeruu]

exactly, they ARE like us kagom, they want you to become jw, so then you can quit and become part of them, please, besides, if what you said really happened, they'd be disfellowshipped by now, and a former JW calling bullshit on me? she should shut up, she turn her back on us and dares to fight against us, she's going to have 1 heck of a ride when armaggedon comes.

1. dont' trust former Jw, they left cause they couldn't understand correctly what we're teaching.
2. you are seriously easy to fool... by the fake Jw that go around. (most people are)
3. either, let the JW teach you when they go preaching, or just die in armaggedon, it's your choice.

[KagomJack]

Kyeruu, there are so many misconceptions in what you just posted. You are a truly honest-to-god dumbfuck for thinking people pose as JWs so you'll join and then leave so you'll become one of them.

She was like I was when I was Catholic: she knew a lot and she could shut people down in a debate. She knows her shit and probably a lot better than you ever will.

According to all those predictions made by your people, Armageddon should've happened quite a few times by now and hasn't.

And you never addressed my points, so you really have no place to talk.

[HandOfHeaven]

Kyeruu and religion arguments should not occur on the same webpage, ever.

[KagomJack]

At this point, I am more than inclined to agree with you there.

[kyeruu]

what ever dude, sure i can't answer those things about Jw, but why would you step down so low as to actually find info on the web, when a JW goes preaching answer the freaking door and ask him the darn question, and your problems will be solved, and as for that former JW, she's a pathetic person, she left us, she's disfellowshipped, i can't say she deserved it, but she left us and believing a former JW is like believing bush is a good governer.

[KagomJack]

Stoop so low as to find info on the web? Ha. You're a riot.

I don't have JWs come to my door at all. Never have and probably never will and there's no Kingdom Halls around here. Kinda hard to ask one in person with those little tidbits in play.

No, she left because she probably realized you guys were full of shit. I dunno why she left, but I'm sure that'd be as good a reason as any.

[kyeruu]

no JW where in the world do you live? under a rock?

[KagomJack]

No, just none in the area where I live or if there are they don't make themselves very visible.

Now back in Rockford we had several kingdom halls and JWs, but they never came to our house.

[Vollstrecker]

Never had Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door, it was always the Mormons. I always made sure to answer the door shuffling a pack of cards.

[kyeruu]

well, why are you arguing over JW if you never associated with one or even had one come to your house... it's the same as lying.

[Vollstrecker]

well, why are you arguing over JW if you never associated with one or even had one come to your house... it's the same as lying.

Do me a favor and point out exactly where I argued any point directly relating to Jehovah's Witnesses, cockwit.

[KagomJack]

Just don't bother, really.

[kyeruu]

not you volts kagom

[!King_Amazon!]

not you volts kagom
READ A FUCKING ENGLISH BOOK.

k

[KagomJack]

You read my mind!

[Thanatos]

He said, "Not you, Mr. Vollstrecker. I was refering to Kagom."

[KagomJack]

Oh, in that case.

Shut up, kyeruu. I have met JWs before, just in different places and online.

[HandOfHeaven]

I hate JWs. They are dumb as hell, almost as stupid as the gold plate believing mormons.

[KagomJack]

Mormons are an entire entity all their own, my friend.

[kyeruu]

mormons are pathetic, they do the mormon thing for 2 years we stick to it proving we're true to our believes, we dont' charge money like mormons do HA, and furthermore, HoH JW aren't dumb as hell what makes you say that? just cause i'm nuts beyond all belief doesnt' mean everyones like that.

That proves another crappy thing about mundane people, they judge by appearences not by the true way people act which leads to their stupid way of thinking.

[KagomJack]

Mormons are pathetic, they do the Mormon thing for 2 years, while we stick to it, proving we're true to our believes, we don’t' charge money like Mormons do HA! And furthermore, HoH, JWs aren't dumb as hell. What makes you say that? Just cause I’m nuts beyond all belief doesn’t mean everyone’s like that.

That proves another crappy thing about mundane people, they judge by appearances, not by the true way people act which leads to their stupid way of thinking.

I ran your garbled trash through a Spell Check. It's so pretty now! :)

And also, you're an idiot if you think that. I do have Mormon friends and they have been Mormon for years and their families have been Mormon their entire lives, etc.

And HoH has not proven any point about "mundane" people, as you so gingerly put it. If anything, you have proven a point about Jehovah's Witnesses: they don't question and they don't know better. One other point you have proven: you are nothing but a little kid who doesn't know how the goddamn world works, yet. You think you know how it does, but you don't. You won't for a long while.

[Shining Knights]

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose.

[Thanatos]

Heaven is fake.

[HandOfHeaven]

I wasn't judging by you. I haven't even read too many of your posts because my eyes get strained after 1. JW are gay in general.

[D3V]

Just found this in a thread back in '03.



Posted 12-05-2003, 09:04 PM in reply to PureRebel's post "Who Do U Hate The Most"

I hate bible thumpers...and mormons and jehovah's witness...annoying lil jerk-offs they are.

[KagomJack]

Hahaha! Back when I was all hardcore Catholic. Great find ;D