No such thing as choice?

[Xenn]

Consider this.

Momentum is conserved. When a particle (nevermind what that means right now) hits another, it shares momentum. But it never goes away, they just bounce back and forth. So this means that since say, the big bang, quadrillions of particles have just been flying around bouncing into each other. Everything that has ever happened has just been the result of these particles colliding. If you don't consider some sort of soul that mythically comes out of nowhere and re-directs particles (in your brain of course), because energy can't be created of course, this means that even when you think you had a choice, it was predetermined and was going to happen no matter what.

Maybe I explained this badly but it's something interesting I've been thinking about

[Jessifer]

Yeaah...it's explained badly. I think I have an idea as to what you're talking about but could you simplify it anyway, por favor? Before I share my opinion, because I don't want to end up talking about something completely different.

[Sum Yung Guy]

Consider this.

Momentum is conserved. When a particle (nevermind what that means right now) hits another, it shares momentum. But it never goes away, they just bounce back and forth. So this means that since say, the big bang, quadrillions of particles have just been flying around bouncing into each other. Everything that has ever happened has just been the result of these particles colliding. If you don't consider some sort of soul that mythically comes out of nowhere and re-directs particles (in your brain of course), because energy can't be created of course, this means that even when you think you had a choice, it was predetermined and was going to happen no matter what.

Maybe I explained this badly but it's something interesting I've been thinking about

Well lifeforms must have evolved with the ability to control the particles into there needs. For example, when I get hungry, somewhere inside me, there are particles that were coaxed into making me feel hungry, and then go get food to feed me. The way your saying the particle theory of everything predetermined would just be complete chaos and life would not exist if you really thing about it... I dont know how to explain it well myself, in words atleast, but I have a good idea how it works in my brain.

[Lenny]

That's interesting. I think I know what you're on about. That people don't actually make the choices themselves, but carry out choices that have already been made?

My mum's just finished doing a Psychology degree, and I can remember that one of the courses had something to do with things like this. Research by scientists has shockingly shown that maybe we don't make our own choices. One of the examples given was someone drops a piece of paper, and they are actually bending down to pick it up before the choice has been made (they worked this out by hooking the brain up to a machine and watching which neurones fired. By using what they already knew they somehow managed to find the choice making things).

I think that's what you're on about, right?

EDIT: Kinda relevant question: Do you believe in things like Fate and Destiny?

Just wondering as you're explanation seems to imply something like Fate...

this means that even when you think you had a choice, it was predetermined and was going to happen no matter what.

[Penny_Bags]

Well lifeforms must have evolved with the ability to control the particles into there needs. For example, when I get hungry, somewhere inside me, there are particles that were coaxed into making me feel hungry, and then go get food to feed me. The way your saying the particle theory of everything predetermined would just be complete chaos and life would not exist if you really thing about it... I dont know how to explain it well myself, in words atleast, but I have a good idea how it works in my brain.
I believe his point is being backed up by you. You aren't making that choice. You simply must eat. He's saying everything is a product of inevitability.

I think this is inadequate. No longer is life just a bunch of particles bouncing back and forth. Besides, we can't even definitely prove any of this scientific stuff. Even if we think it's been proved, who knows? You know?

I think what SYG is saying is the same as what I am saying though if he said it better :P. I'll try my best. Basically we are evolved through yes, inevitability. However, that doesn't make us all products of that. We are now evolved to the point at which we do have the concious ability and power to make somewhat of a choice. No matter how small it is. Look at a cripple who takes his first step in 25 years. That's a BIG move for him, but small for us. So even though this might look grim, in that we have no choice... maybe the fact that I can either drink a glass of water or a glass of gatorade is incredibly profound.

[Xenn]

maybe the fact that I can either drink a glass of water or a glass of gatorade is incredibly profound.

Ah, but are you drinking the one you chose, or the one that you were going to choose because of things that occurred in the past? Maybe you had some crackers earlier that made you thirsty... and maybe you've got a subconscious preference for something colored (assuming you took the gatorade).

Maybe a better example is if you're standing in a totally empty, bland room with two doors (A and B). Neither door has any difference besides being on opposite sides of the room. You're going to choose the one you prefer based on past experiences.. maybe you subconsciously like the letter B more, or maybe you think turning to the right is better. These are tiny little things but they ultimately lead up to your decision.

[sciencekid]

yes! finally a profound topic to reply about! I i think it also depends on what you believe in, if there's a God or not. see if you do, then it's like

God says: ok, i know (whoever) is going to say (option a) not (option b).
Whoever: blah blah blah(option a)
God: hah! I was right!

Therefore it's predestination, but on the other hand he gives us free choice, but he knows what you're gonna do or say.... so whatever

of course if you don't believe in God, then both are still equal options, it just depends on which one you choose ;)

so either way it still could be both redestination or free will, choice or action coming first.... the chicken or the egg.....any way, it all comes to choice, which proves that choice came first, which in turn depicts that it could be either! so there you have it,...... a circular definition!

[Penny_Bags]

Scientific predestination. This is gravely terrifying.