Question: How did the universe begin?

[Demosthenes]

I want your personal theory on this. Did god create the universe? Was there something else. Has it always been here? State which side you're taking (i.e. scientific, theological etc.) and try to support it as best you can. Lets try to not turn this into a debate. If you want to comment on someone elses theory, fine, but try to keep this thread from turning into an all-out debate about religion.

So, what do you think?

[Slim]

I really have no idea, but I lean towards the scientific view. I mean, there IS the "matter cannot be created or destroyed" law that religion will always bring up, but if that's the case what could have created god?

Anyway, I'd say the big bang.

[Demosthenes]

Sorry, I worded it wrong. For you scientific believers, how was the universe put into play before the big bang? And try to expand a bit, if you can, Slim. I'd like to hear everyone's ideas.

[Slim]

I honestly have no idea, I'm not knowledgeable enough in the area to make any comment without it being pulled straight from my ass.

[D3V]

I'd have to go on a religious note. Put it this way. God has always existed, nobody created him/her. But it's always been there. Now God has the power to create, and give. God's powers must have created the universe. Not too sure how it works.

This could just be a Matrix type thing, we're just one big ass test tube, and somebody is having us for their science project.

[tokill.ace]

This could just be a Matrix type thing, we're just one big ass test tube, and somebody is having us for their science project.


I've thought about that. We'll never really know. I believe in God. He's always been there. Nothings going to change my mind about that. All the stories about him have been proved in a way. Through the bible, and there was older history that the same exact events that were in the bible, were recorded in a journal/book. I believe in God 110%. Whenever I pray, it always comes true.


ALWAYS.

Bottom line is:















GOD IS REAL, EVEN IF U CANT SEE HIM

[HandOfHeaven]

God is the Alpha and Omega; beginning and end. He has always been there. Created the world in 6 24 hour days, and rested on the 7th day. He saw that everything was good. The world has only been around for roughly 8,000 to 10,000 years. Just look at the world around you. How could a spontaneous combustion from a tiny dot form all of this coincidentally like it is? God made the world beautiful. The world used to be one continent, but then God wiped out everyone on the earth with the flood except for Noah and his family on his ark. This happening, the lands were split apart and formed as they are. Yay God!

Yeah, don't tell me this is random bullshit, because it isn't. Don't insult me, I will return the favor.

[tokill.ace]

Dude, it's not bullshit one bit. I like your words. :)

[w00t.ace]

Wow, I always thought that everybody here was either atheist or christians who dont really believe in god completely. Hand of heaven and tokill.ace and d3v, I have just created a newfound respect toward you. I too believe that god exists and always has, I would be lying if I never was sceptical, but I think that there's no way we'll ever prove how it all started, so all I have is to believe.

[Demosthenes]

I like all of your responses so far. I just have one request. Perhaps expanding on why you believe as you do, if at all possible.

[tokill.ace]

Why not believe? Believing is the only thing I do. I believe in God because..well because hes God. Why not believe in him? I've already "been" to heaven in my dream. I saw him alive, and I believe from there. He's REAL. He's given people life. The only thing you can do is to respect, believe, and pray. Don't do sins. God, just saying that makes me think of soo many things. All the things have to do with believing though. Believe is the only thing that my mind likes. It makes it up. It has fun. It's the only thing that YOU can depend on.



Dunno if that made sense to anybody?

[HandOfHeaven]

Sort of brought up with it, but in catechism class last year, we studied other religions. Most 'Christian' doctrines teach that God created the world, and I cannot see how a small dot exploded into something as vast as the universe. And how everything fell in so perfectly, it seems like nonsense to say that it all just appeared. Read several sections of the bible, and I believe it. It said in Genesis that the spirit of the Lord (Holy Ghost/Spirit) was hovering over some murky matter, and began to mold and shape it into the earth. With his Word, God created something out of nothing, a feat we still have to overcome. In the beginning was the heavens and the earth. Lucifer corrupted some other angels and fell(was sent) to hell. I would go on, but I don't want to be excessive.

[‡AC‡]

I belive that the universe is expanding exponetally(sp?) to a point were it will start contracting again and start over with another big bang.

[Slim]

God is the Alpha and Omega; beginning and end. He has always been there. Created the world in 6 24 hour days
"Days" in the Biblical sense, weren't 24 hours.

[!King_Amazon!]

The bible is shit, I don't believe anything in it, it's just a book that has been changed by so many people in the past.

My personal belief is both religious and scientific. I believe in the big bang, but something had to start it. There has to be some sort of supreme being(God, whatever).

[tokill.ace]

What do you guys mean "big bang". Sure call me a dumbass, but let me know first. Never heard that.

[Vollstrecker]

I believe in the possible existence, or former existence of God.

I lean more towards the Big Bang Theory, and rationalize that God created the mass/energy that caused it all to begin with. The Universe is expanding, and there is the distinct possibility that our Universe is not the only one in the void of space. We may never truly know.

As to the question of how God came into existence (if He truly exists), the answer is unfathomable to us, as He cannot have always existed, nor can He have "willed" Himself into existence, as there would have been no "existence" without His creating it.

I digress. I would go on about this subject, but that is not the intention of this thread.

[==Nit5u4==]

It began with jellyfish.

[kockblocker1]

The bible is a book of fiction written by man.

As far as creation hypotheses go I lean towards the evolutionary side of the house. Yes the universe is expanding and I do believe there is dark matter in the universe. I don’t know and couldn’t fathom to speculate what existed prior to the big bang. Our current set of physics and mathematics are not adequate to construct a solid explanation of the creation of the universe.

[D3V]

Well I've had my thread on Evolution, but it was quite racist, and spammed to hell. It was that African americans evolved from monkeys, and Caucasians evolved from Cavemen. But that's just a joke :D.

I'm Kind of on K_A's side. I mean, I believe that our universe could have just existed forever, but something needs to get it going. Our GOD, who may have been one of us at one point, enlightened beyond anything spiritual or mental. Not sure. It really makes my head hurt to think about all of the possibilities/variables. But I do believe in GOD, and My guess is that he/she started it all off at one point in time. Getting the ball rolling, creating earth with his/her mind/intellegence and we have naturally evolved from that point.

[Sovereign]

It has something to do with the m theory. It states that time existed before the creation of the universe and that we are just one universe of a multiverse. I saw it on the discovery chanlle. It requires the existance of I believe 11 dimensional space.

[tokill.ace]

Discovery channel *sigh*. Why do you even watch that program?

[Sovereign]

Why wouldnt I. And actually it was the Science chan.

That and TLC own.

[Demosthenes]

It has something to do with the m theory. It states that time existed before the creation of the universe and that we are just one universe of a multiverse. I saw it on the discovery chanlle. It requires the existance of I believe 11 dimensional space.

Heh. I was just reading up on the M theory myself, yesterday. Couldn't quite understand much of it, though. :confused:

[Vollstrecker]

Discovery channel *sigh*. Why do you even watch that program?

Discovery Channel is the shit, that's why.

[Sovereign]

Link me. It's something I know so little about but want to learn :(.

[Demosthenes]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1270726.stm
http://superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo4.html (string theory)

There were more. I'll see if I can find them for you.

[wilma]

I personally am very christian and believe strongly in god. I have never abandoned science though so i do think there are some possible scientific explanations.

Time is a circuit - Since its always so difficult to comprehend i think that the best way of explaning it is as a single image. To me its in the shape of a donut (or a ring i guess). Where do you find the end of a ring? If u travel in a circle, where does it end? Many people think that there has always been something. In this case, maybe the end of the universe merely fades into the beginning.I think that maybe time is somethign that just doesnt stop and go its a never ending track that we all have our own lanes in.

I'm sure i got more ideas up in my head......but I'm busy with my Grade 11 history hw for IB. Fucking stupid IB...... :killgrin:

[Vollstrecker]

How did the donut come into existence?

[wilma]

I guess this "donut" theory is more of how things occur after time was set in motion. I'll give you the heads up when i figure it all out though:rolleyes:

[w00t.ace]

wow, an actuall intelligent conversation without constant flaming and diverse ideas.. never thought id see that here

[wilma]

the people here are smart but are just lazy. Its easier to flame than it is to think intelligently.

[Penny_Bags]

I'd have to go on a religious note. Put it this way. God has always existed, nobody created him/her. But it's always been there. Now God has the power to create, and give. God's powers must have created the universe. Not too sure how it works.

This could just be a Matrix type thing, we're just one big ass test tube, and somebody is having us for their science project.This is the first of a series of posts by me that will make all of you think about what you have said.

D3v... who's to say that the universe has always existed? If God has always existed, why couldn't the universe always exist. How can you even prove existence outside of your own thoughts? You can't. Sure, you think therefor you are... but maybe that existence is only based in one area... your own "head"... so to speak. But who created you?... God? What created God? If god always existed couldnt the universe have done the same? And thus, an eternal cycle... infinity...

And the "Giant" test tube could be comparitavely small to everything else... maybe we are in a test tube in side of a test tube inside of a test tube... and so on and so forth.

[Penny_Bags]

I've thought about that. We'll never really know. I believe in God. He's always been there. Nothings going to change my mind about that. All the stories about him have been proved in a way. Through the bible, and there was older history that the same exact events that were in the bible, were recorded in a journal/book. I believe in God 110%. Whenever I pray, it always comes true.


ALWAYS.

Bottom line is:















GOD IS REAL, EVEN IF U CANT SEE HIM
Your final statement is an opinion. How do you know that there aren't 256 Gods?

[Vollstrecker]

Your final statement is an opinion. How do you know that there aren't 256 Gods?

Don't lie. There is only one for each of the Primary Colors. The Seconday Colors are their half-human offspring, and as such, mere Demi-Gods, since they're all female Goddesses.

Like the Fanta girls.

[Demosthenes]

http://www.realmproductions.com/Images/Gallery/fanta.jpg

That commercial would be so much better without the horrid background music.

But I digress. Back to the topic at hand.

[MightyJoe]

I believe in the possible existence, or former existence of God.

I lean more towards the Big Bang Theory, and rationalize that God created the mass/energy that caused it all to begin with. The Universe is expanding, and there is the distinct possibility that our Universe is not the only one in the void of space. We may never truly know.



I agree with volls here. It all had to start with God, he had to create something that could make the Big Bang. He could have chosen that the Big Bang was how the world would start.


==Nit5u4==, stop spamming shit please.

[MightyJoe]

Sorry bout the double, ie is just fucking around with me today.

[robotbees]

all things left to themselves unless acted on by an outside force will tend towards chaos.
our universe is orderly, there was a chaos theory but it has basically been disproven. even evolution proves this. for those who dont know, following through with evolution all the way, Darwin concluded the latter part of his life a Christian, sighting the eyeball as an example that with all that is necessary and orderly to have evolution allow this eye to work, to believe there is no God is 'obsurd to the highest degree'

the universe, being orderly, must be acted on by an outside force to maintain this characteristic.
so now you have the equation with our universe and it requires the presence of something outside out universe acting on it.
in the most basic definition, we call this God.
God must have a will, because without logic, order is an impossibility.

the universe, encompassing time must have a beginning to exist. time as a concept exists within our universe, however beyond that, time, coming existing within, does not apply.
this is why God's existance need not have a begginning.

human beings, being within this universe and always having been subject to time are unable to fathom something existing without a beginning, to us (because we are temporal beings) a beginning is a must, a staple of existance, and a truth.

despite being unable to fathome such a concept as existing without a beginning, the fact that if something exists outside the universe and hence not subject to the constraints of time is not only possible, but given that something DOES exist outside the universe, it is also true.

there is no reason why people presenting the question of the universe's beginning must seperate science and religion. the two go hand in hand really. everything science proves supports the religious belief in God. what doesnt support it if you are really seeking the real truth, you will find are half way facts.
these are hypothese, equations, and theorums that are people only take as far as to prove information they have already decided on and need proof of rather than taking it all the way to see what it is telling them, usually a sign of arrogance or fear. people get wrapped up in trying to tell rather than listen.
so anyway, this is what ive found so far.
i dont like opinions much that's why i didnt involve my personal religion, just the facts backing up that there is one. i have my beliefs, you have yours. but ultimately it surprises me very much that there are any atheists left. especially in the scientific community, actually every years there is a drop in atheists, the more we learn about physics and such but there are still some.
im not putting them down, im just wondering why now that we have come far enough that science is working hand in hand more and more with faith, how anyone, provided they are seeking scientific truth, cant see that there is something outside the universe, something powerful enough to create it! and that, existing outside of time, is eternal, the alpha and omega, encompassing both beginning and end, as this Being is master of both, being independant of both, and subject to neither.

[Demosthenes]

all things left to themselves unless acted on by an outside force will tend towards chaos.
our universe is orderly, there was a chaos theory but it has basically been disproven. even evolution proves this. for those who dont know, following through with evolution all the way, Darwin concluded the latter part of his life a Christian, sighting the eyeball as an example that with all that is necessary and orderly to have evolution allow this eye to work, to believe there is no God is 'obsurd to the highest degree'

the universe, being orderly, must be acted on by an outside force to maintain this characteristic.
so now you have the equation with our universe and it requires the presence of something outside out universe acting on it.
in the most basic definition, we call this God.
God must have a will, because without logic, order is an impossibility.

the universe, encompassing time must have a beginning to exist. time as a concept exists within our universe, however beyond that, time, coming existing within, does not apply.
this is why God's existance need not have a begginning.

human beings, being within this universe and always having been subject to time are unable to fathom something existing without a beginning, to us (because we are temporal beings) a beginning is a must, a staple of existance, and a truth.

despite being unable to fathome such a concept as existing without a beginning, the fact that if something exists outside the universe and hence not subject to the constraints of time is not only possible, but given that something DOES exist outside the universe, it is also true.

there is no reason why people presenting the question of the universe's beginning must seperate science and religion. the two go hand in hand really. everything science proves supports the religious belief in God. what doesnt support it if you are really seeking the real truth, you will find are half way facts.
these are hypothese, equations, and theorums that are people only take as far as to prove information they have already decided on and need proof of rather than taking it all the way to see what it is telling them, usually a sign of arrogance or fear. people get wrapped up in trying to tell rather than listen.
so anyway, this is what ive found so far.
i dont like opinions much that's why i didnt involve my personal religion, just the facts backing up that there is one. i have my beliefs, you have yours. but ultimately it surprises me very much that there are any atheists left. especially in the scientific community, actually every years there is a drop in atheists, the more we learn about physics and such but there are still some.
im not putting them down, im just wondering why now that we have come far enough that science is working hand in hand more and more with faith, how anyone, provided they are seeking scientific truth, cant see that there is something outside the universe, something powerful enough to create it! and that, existing outside of time, is eternal, the alpha and omega, encompassing both beginning and end, as this Being is master of both, being independant of both, and subject to neither.


Wow. Very well written. Being an atheist myself, I'll respond to you more thoroughly tomorrow (friday!!) since I will have more time, but that was a great post. I disagree with you on some aspects, but thanks for providing me that insight into what you believe, and why you believe it.

[robotbees]

It has something to do with the m theory. It states that time existed before the creation of the universe and that we are just one universe of a multiverse. I saw it on the discovery chanlle. It requires the existance of I believe 11 dimensional space.

this is also referred to as string theory.

currently the main goal is to catch an image of a graviton particle (released within a particle excellorator [atom smasher], there are two large enough for this in the world, assuming the other has been built by now) as it is vanishing, gravitons are known to mysteriously make leaps or jumps to an unknown destination which may be, of many other possibilities, parallel dimensions or universes.
the 11 dimenional space thing is from quantum mechanics and sounds scary!

[NonGayMan]

We have somehow gained the world and lost our soul, yet once we see over the yonder of ourselves, peace of mind will be waiting. Love in this world has gone so cold. How are we going to glimpse the truth if it's far too late? With so much space between us all, we will truly never know the meaning of within. Do we all have an importance in this world? I believe we do, but we need some sort of ambition first. However, if the meaning of within is being, then isn't it true that we have to make this decision? We could be perfect, supplementary to the fact that most of us feel we are only human. The Bible states we keep holy the Sabbath Day. How do we know this doesn't mean live? It doesn't really matter if you're wrong; you're right.

Let me ask you. Have you seen beyond yourself? Have you found out who you are?

[kockblocker1]

but ultimately it surprises me very much that there are any atheists left. especially in the scientific community, actually every years there is a drop in atheists, the more we learn about physics and such but there are still some.
im not putting them down, im just wondering why now that we have come far enough that science is working hand in hand more and more with faith, how anyone, provided they are seeking scientific truth, cant see that there is something outside the universe, something powerful enough to create it! and that, existing outside of time, is eternal, the alpha and omega, encompassing both beginning and end, as this Being is master of both, being independant of both, and subject to neither.


My ideals tend to be Atheist BECAUSE I went to a Catholic school. The majority of the devout self proclaimed religious people I have met in my life were also among the most hypocritical. You are correct in that the nature of existence cannot be explained. I however, disagree with your logic to simply classify the way the building blocks fell on a higher being.

[wilma]

truer words were never spoken robot, although i'll admit i had to read it several times to fully understand all the concepts u spoke of.

I completely agree with most of what u've said. Our own mortality impairs greatly our own ability to fully understand the universe. We constantly look back at birth and look forward (not hoping for, you know what i mean) towards our death. It is in our nature. We see both as mortal truths and our entire comprehension of the universe is impared by it. The fact that something that may never have had a beginning or end will always seem alien to us.

Being a devoted and loyal Christian, I do believe in the one who has always been. So many people agree that God (in some form) has always been there. For them he exists outside of our universe, an omnipotent being. Thus there is no reason to look for where they fit in, in comparison to Gods eternal existence. This is where time comes in. Since we view "our time" as having both a beginning and end (birth and death) we encompass all time to have one aswell. It is far easier to comprehend yourself when looking at something with similarities. Viewed as more of a measuring stick, where we only see how we measure up and where we're at.

In short, I think that God is out there. He lives outside of our mortal realm and is as much a caretaker as he is the almighty. Time is a mere expression that we use to try and define existance. Things that begin and end will make more sense to us as we are able to relate to them.

Mayb in death we will find our answers. If we die, and thats it, there's nothing left, God can be dismissed as a simple species explanation for life and we'll see time is as mortal as us. Maybe we go on to live it again, repeatedly. We'll then see that life is that never ending cycle, no start or finish only a track to infinity. But maybe, and just maybe, we'll find ourselves face to face with the almighty himself. Free to sit with the creator and watch eternity unfold.

The greatest question and greatest answer may be the best explanation anyone could give:

Why?
-Because.

[sheerx]

The bible is not shit
it probably is something like the matrix where everything is one big project but with God instead of a old hat in a white suit

[robotbees]

My ideals tend to be Atheist BECAUSE I went to a Catholic school. The majority of the devout self proclaimed religious people I have met in my life were also among the most hypocritical. You are correct in that the nature of existence cannot be explained. I however, disagree with your logic to simply classify the way the building blocks fell on a higher being.

haha, yeah, most of the people i know who are atheist, actually probably 90% of them went to Catholic school. i think that has something to do with it. weather it be the resentment built up through developmental stages in youth having an unfortunate target or what i cant say.
regardless of how blessed or holy anyone is, they are human, noone likes seeing that, noone likes seeing their parent get hurt. to child this protector is invincible and any suggestion otherwise is intolerable!

its very damaging when someone who is in a postion you are supposed to respect behaves in a far more human (or devious) manner.

its funny how bad people getting into good positions can spoil the entire scene. if the people at my work knew some of the things ive done im sure they would be very dissappointed with me, i doubt they would lose faith in the medical field but who knows!

anyway, you said you disagree with my logic to simply classify the way building blocks fell on a higher power.
the logic is not simple, just solid. this is a fairly early and atiquated debate really, its true the universe to be orderly must be held that way by an outside force, the fact that order requires action from outside to maintain it is true, and it is a fact that following that out to the farthest rung you reach a point where sentience is required, some amount of logical will. otherwise you could just assume that somewhere beyond our universe a pair of scissors is mindlessly floating there somehow keeping everything in order. obviously this is obsurd. why? because a pair of scissors has no mind.

now someone could say, well what if the scissors ( i know this sounds weird as an example but scissors are as good an example as anything for this) were large and had a magnetic field and thats what was keeping the universe in order somehow.

following that, for the god-scissors to have a quality like that that could keep anything in order. that quality must be orderly as well, something like a magnetic field, if it were chaotic, it couldnt be holding anything like the universe in order at all. so whats keeping the scissors in order since they have no will?

my point, though i went about it in a really really weird way, is that the final rung, eventually you have to get to a begginning of order, and not a beginning in a temporal way, a begginning in a primary numbers kind of way, if you know what i mean.
the beginning, being orderly must, not because i want it to or thats what i think but because this is what the equation requires, must have a will. an awareness. this acts on the other things making them orderly. without a will or awareness, logic is impossible. It makes sense, follows rules... is orderly, therefore must be made that way, and as logic is nothing more than a sensicle set of basic rules, decisions were made to make them that way. this is not my opinion, this is truth whos alternatives are impossible. decisions were made to make them that way. at the core and nature of logic it is engineered as something that makes sense. without a mind, that is truely impossible.


wilma, i like what you said about time. its totally right on, ive always said that too, ive said that time is more like the metric system than it is an essence. its only what we use to measure the movement of reality as it stirrs within now. thats all.
try to think of 3 seconds from now, all youre doing is counting in your head, things have changed, did you even move? it makes no difference. it isnt real, it only serves to ease our minds from the sense of a horizontal freefall if we actually understood now is the only thing that is real along with the consequence of actions because they move with us, while we remember what happened yesterday it is not in the past, it is still with us, only it has changed, we call these changes consequences, but its like watching a pint of guinness settle when it gets that nice head on it!
all the foam comes up to the top, has the foam from the beginning been left behind in some impossibility? no of course not, its just taken a different shape, its grown or whatever.
you get what i mean. but its funny how if you think about that enough you can almost see a glimpse of how time isnt real at all, its just like counting in your head. you werent even counting at all, the chemicals in your mind that to your consciousness equal your voice saying 'one" have changed to the ones that equal you saying "two" and thats its. nothing more, there wasnt even a sequence, just the changing of chemicals though all the chemicals for one two and three still simultaneously exist.

well ive given myself a headache, so peace!

[symnzXx]

The world has only been around for roughly 8,000 to 10,000 years.
OH MY FUCKING GOD, ARE YOU JOKING?

it is a sad day for you, miss. :cry:

[w00t.ace]

HAHAHA hand of heaven, there has been tons of evidence of stuff more than 10,000 years old. The world is about 2.3478456 million years old(just an estimate).

[tokill.ace]

If it was that old, it would turn moldy. ^_^

[Demosthenes]

HAHAHA hand of heaven, there has been tons of evidence of stuff more than 10,000 years old. The world is about 2.3478456 million years old(just an estimate).

Actually, it's closer to 6 billion years old.

[Lenny]

Actually, it's closer to 6 billion years old.

The actual figure is about 4,550 million years, give or take 70 million. This was put forward by a certain Clair Patterson (male). He gave up using Earth rocks to find out how old the world was, but used meteorites, assuming - correctly as it know turns out - that they were the, if you like, left over bits from the earliest days of the solar system, from the days when it had just been created, and probably, not that long after the creation of the Universe.

How did the Universe begin though?

I'm gonna have to go with the Big Bang theory, and say big and sudden release of energy and matter...etc. You can imagine, no?

As for God, being an atheist I've gotta say that the minds of men started to believe in a supernatural being that created everything. This would, to them, explain some of the mysteries of life, such as, who made all this? As I have said in another post elsewhere, belief creates things. If the/se person/people who believed in the supernatural being persuaded enough people about it, than the idea would quickly spread, like grass fires on dry moors. And then, overenthusiatic people might start to worship their supernatural being, going under the impressions that if someone/thing could create what is around them, then they could also destroy it if something upset them. I'd say the idea of God was created sometime around/after the Stone Age, when people believed anything - take trepanning as an example. Someone has a bad headache, the medicine men think of bad spirits, so cut a hole through the skull to let out bad spirits. Either v. religious - i.e devil etc. - or v. superstitious - spirits says it all.

I've strayed a bit, oh well. So just imagine a sudden explosion of energy and matter, enough to create things, and still make things exand even now.

Also, I would like to comment on the matrix idea - one big test tube - who or what then created the Universe in which the test tube and those who's science experiment are in???

[Demosthenes]

The actual figure is about 4,550 million years, give or take 70 million. This was put forward by a certain Clair Patterson (male). He gave up using Earth rocks to find out how old the world was, but used meteorites, assuming - correctly as it know turns out - that they were the, if you like, left over bits from the earliest days of the solar system, from the days when it had just been created, and probably, not that long after the creation of the Universe.

Just reporting what I've learned in school.

Our Biology teacher told us that they have evidence of life around from 4 billion years ago. That would mean life would be on this planet only 550 million years after its formation. Of course, she could be wrong on that.

Edit: Yup. Just looked it up. Almost every website I've been to has said 4.5 billion years.

[tokill.ace]

Who has evidence?

[Lenny]

Who has evidence?

Evidence. Hmm - Clair Patterson, a boy from the remote parts of America came up with an idea of trying to find out the age of the Earth, the scientific craze at that time. As the rocks on Earth are in a cycle, and are recycled to make new ones, they are unreliable sources, so Patterson tested meteorites found on Earth I believe, and came up with the conclusion that the Earth is the same age as its surroundings - 4.5 billion years. He used Harrison Brown's new method of counting lead isotopes in igneous rocks. It just so happens that Brown put Patterson onto the task of counting these isotopes in meteorites. It did, however, take Patterson nearly a decade.

If you want more evidence, I'll try and find some. Alternatively you could look on google for Clair Patterson etc.


(Wait a minute. I'm a self proclaimed, scientific atheist. According to previous posts, that shouldn't be possible, right???)

[WetWired]

God created the world in 6 days. Order tends toward chaos without energy external to the system, therefore to think that we evolved from dust is foolishness; God created the first man from dust by introducing external energy.

As for those who say that the world was not created in 6 days, God made his creation with age. The bible does not say that God created Adam as a baby, and that when he was old enough, he interacted with him, no Adam was created fully grown, just as the earth and the rest of creation was created with age.

[tokill.ace]

Techincally, everyone's related to each other. Everyone has to be related to Adam and Eve meaning that everyone is related to each other?

[Demosthenes]

God created the world in 6 days. Order tends toward chaos without energy external to the system, therefore to think that we evolved from dust is foolishness; God created the first man from dust by introducing external energy.

As for those who say that the world was not created in 6 days, God made his creation with age. The bible does not say that God created Adam as a baby, and that when he was old enough, he interacted with him, no Adam was created fully grown, just as the earth and the rest of creation was created with age.

You're a computer, stupid. You don't believe in god. :p

[tokill.ace]

WetWired is right.

[Lenny]

If I had a choice between the God created life, or eveolution, I would choose evolution. There is more eveidence that we did evolve from apes, than God creating two people who gave birth to others etc. Anyway, I have noticed, that in the bible, it doesn't say where the women came from to allow Cain or Abel to reproduce. Which means that technically, the line should have died at Cain or Abel, unless God created more people - a big thing for the bible to miss if it happened, no?

A bit off topic, but on the same lines - e.g creation was a miracle by God.
Well, I'm gonna have to sink my own boat here and put this link up - Scientists looking for God.

http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Jan2002/MoreOnLourdesMiracleMSCure.html

[robotbees]

If I had a choice between the God created life, or eveolution, I would choose evolution. There is more eveidence that we did evolve from apes, than God creating two people who gave birth to others etc. Anyway, I have noticed, that in the bible, it doesn't say where the women came from to allow Cain or Abel to reproduce. Which means that technically, the line should have died at Cain or Abel, unless God created more people - a big thing for the bible to miss if it happened, no?

A bit off topic, but on the same lines - e.g creation was a miracle by God.
Well, I'm gonna have to sink my own boat here and put this link up - Scientists looking for God.

http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Jan2002/MoreOnLourdesMiracleMSCure.html


i dont think the bible missed anything with the cain and able thing. it said adam and eve were the first, not the only. there may have been 1 billion people created the very next day, that has no signifgance to the story so why include it. the bible says nothing about chocolate milk either but i sure know that exists!!!!!!!!!

also there is no reason to chose God created life OR evolution. the two go hand in hand. it is impossible to have evolution without God. it is impossible to have the big bang without God. i explained why it goes back to an original conscious will, unrestrained and creative to have logic exist and also to be the alpha of all things. to have the faith that a big bang just existed without anything causing it is a bigger leap than to believe God caused it and far more obsurd. mainly because it is going against the scientific law that i stated, and wetwired reitterated more efficiently, basically none of that could happen unless acted on from outside.
evidence, solid, that an outside will exists. i dont think there is much more to debate beyond that. the details are only cosmetic to our main arguments. im glad at no point did this become and argument in that sense, so far the arguments in the litteral sense braught up were very good on both sides and interesting!

[Vollstrecker]

Ehm, I think that the Bible said that Cain and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve, as I seem to remember something about Eve loving Abel more for his gentle nature, but I may be mixing in some Joseph... I don't really care, it's been years since I read any of that.

Also:


it is impossible to have evolution without God.

Last I checked, Satan caused the world to evolve, by triggering the banishment of Adam and Eve from Eden. Had they not eaten of the Forbidden Fruit, they would still be ignorant and happy in Eden.


to have the faith that a big bang just existed without anything causing it is a bigger leap than to believe God caused it and far more obsurd

If God exists, why would he define a codified set of Laws (Physics), create a Big Bang, and whatnot rather than merely Create the world as the Bible says? Obviously, the Bible is wrong in the sense of God creating the world, and earlier versions even told of Him setting the stars and Sun to rotate around the Earth as a symbol for His love for us. Obviously, that's not the case, and that was removed lest people lose faith.


basically none of that could happen unless acted on from outside.
evidence, solid, that an outside will exists.

I can turn that right around and ask what outside force brought about the existence of God? If you say, "He's always existed", I will ask, "Why couldn't Matter have always existed?". All things have a beginning. Even as I think Wilma said about the donut, sure it would work, but how did the donut start? We're just going to be going around in circles forever.

[Lenny]

Go Voll. Stick it to him......OK I'll kinda shutup now.

Anyway, apparently, the Universe is infinite (yet expanding, what???) so that means there cannot be anything outside, the inner, as it were, being infinite and filling up the infinite space if there were an outside. .'. The cannot be an outside...thing creating order in the Universe. Also, God must have been outside the Universe if he were to create it, as if it didn't exist, he couldn't be inside to create it, but he couldnt be outside even, as there is, as I have stated, no outside. But that then brings about the question, if there is no outside, then how could there be an inside, and if there is neither, why us?

I usually get round the latter question by going crazy and saying: You are all figments of my imagination. But then some smart-alec always comes up with: And you're a figment of our imagination. So......

[Slim]

Anyway, apparently, the Universe is infinite (yet expanding, what???)
The universe itself isn't expanding, just everything in it is moving outwards to the "edges", or so the theory says.

[Lenny]

Ah, but what edges? It's infinite, right?

[Slim]

Yeah, but I didn't really know how else to put it, the "edges" are the hypothetical stopping points, where all the planets and such start moving back in towards the center and pack in so tightly another big bang occurs.

[Lenny]

Big Splat take 2? Some theories say it all started with a splat before the bang. Or Implosion. Apparently, due to this moving to the hypothetical edges, in a couple of billion years or so, the Sun will lose it gravitational hold on the planets, and our solar system will be no more. But, the Earth will lose it's hold on the moon way before that. It's been happening ever since we got the moon, it is slipping away each year.

[Chruser]

God created physics? I think not. We merely invented physics to find systems that suit our world somewhat well. In reality, almost everything is relative to each other in various ways. We merely use scientific models to help us approximate things. Science easily narrows down our perspectives, and easily causes us to lose the grasp of things at large. Looking at gravitation between two planets might make us forget that there are other planets, and stars in the universe that exert force upon our system, too. Scientific models get thrown aside by the day, too.

The "infinite" universe expands at high velocities, and is accelerating away from other parts of the universe. Why this happens, science does not know. Maybe there is something outside what we know, some matter with great mass that is pulling our outer galaxies apart. The big bang theory has flaws, just like the Bohr atom model. It seems like an awesome thought that the universe might once have EXPLODED from a single point, but it was more complicated than that.

And for the religious models, some have been "revised" over time because science has proved them wrong. If the universe was created roughly 6,000 years ago, then why are there materials that are billions of years old in the universe?

I don't blame anyone for having their own beliefs, but this question is, in my opinion, almost as bad as discussing what religion is right, or what happens after we die. Science DOES have quite a bit of clues in this particular question, but things are still far from final. But again, it's easier to just buy some random theory that sounds nice, especially if others believe in it, too.

Why search for the truth in areas that might never give us true answers? Because it's interesting, and that's part of our human qualities.

[Vollstrecker]

God created physics?

I phrased that wrong. I meant more along the lines he created the relationships between things that we study and call Physics.

[kockblocker1]

To those of you who say god created the universe and us. Why are we here then? Why create us?

[blckshdwdragon]

I dont belive in god. There might have been some sort of human-oid being (or even a con artist) that directed the evovling human race to do so. Every one in those time periods were kinda whack because they didnt have science to explain things. The red sea couldnt have parted because someone said so. There are arguments and flaws in the time frames throughout the bible due to oral tradition. Since oral tradition very accurate its very hard to prove precisely what happened but we do have an idea what might have happend. knockblocker1 brings up the issue of why? noone can answer that unless a "god" did exist and "god" himself answered that question. Simply as that religion has only a grasp of that happened to our comprehension because we werent there when it happened. We wont ever know unless someone invents a time machine (lemme know if you do so i can win the 106 million power ball in like 2000 ya? :D and rape a few chicks while im at it :P j/p)

For the big bang, what caused it is unknown and cant be explained through our limited technology as of now (until we figure out how to develop warp drive * 234587243569634 we can yah :D). However if we find out that quarks have mass we are all fucked in about 329872395624356 billion years (hypothetical number i pulled out of my ass but its like some where in the high billions) with another big bang (anyone wanna join me to see the fireworks?_?). As for the laws of matter, i would theoritically guess that matter has existed like the space time continium as how electrons move throughout an electric circuit, they are already there. A battery merely acts like a pump moving the electrons to do w/e. Simply to say, matter always existed and a bad pressure moment could have forced an explosion/implosion creating the big bang (possibly an accident).

[Vollstrecker]

My point is that Matter couldn't have always existed, much the same as God couldn't have always existed.

[Arbitus]

Thiis the question I always see, and everytime I see it, it makes me believe in GOD more or some kind of super human/squirle/dog/anything to have created it.
I mean try thinking back of how it begain. What is the first thing ever? The first planet? Was it just nothing, complete blackness for centries? Something had to have started something. I mean my head starts hurting when I get asked this, because I start thinking as hard as I can to come up with anything. But thats the problem, there is nothing. And I doubt scientists will EVER find out how EVERYTHING (planets, universe, where the nothing came from, how long ago that nothing started, and how?) was created. Sure they will most likly get far but no one will ever know how anything was started.

[Shining Knights]

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose.

[blckshdwdragon]

My point is that Matter couldn't have always existed, much the same as God couldn't have always existed.

It could have. If you cant explain how time works than you cant logically say that matter couldnt have always existed. We know its always been around. If there was no space time continium, how are we alive. Things wouldnt have time to evolve or yet alone let the big bang occur. matter has always existed -> "Matter cant be created nor destroyed". Logically prove me wrong, that is if you can.

Shinto: matter is matter, negative matter is matter only negatively charged so to speak.

Arbitus: a time machine could, granted that we fiigure out how to bend/rip/manipulate the S.T.C, other than that in my previous statement. We will eventually figure it out with time.

[Arbitus]

Arbitus: a time machine could, granted that we fiigure out how to bend/rip/manipulate the S.T.C, other than that in my previous statement. We will eventually figure it out with time.

What would we set the time machine to? "Before nothing"? lol jp

It just bothers me. Yes maybe there was a big bang, but from where? meaning where did it occur? if there was nothing. where did the first darkness come from?

[Lenny]

Time machines are a paradox. Take the example that you can go forward into the future and see yourself. You would then travel back to present day, and most people would try to change their future. But that means that the future they saw could never exist because they just changed it, or that the one they saw was the changed one, but then that couldn't have been because they had not yet seen it to go back and change it.

Also, if you went back in time, you would definitely kill something or other that would change something, wether unimportant or extremely important in your present day --> you are billions of years (they say the Universe was created 15 billion years ago) from home, which means the results are amplified more than, say, if you went back just one year. There are too many things that we don't know about, that we ca either kill or change, even if we can't see them, to be able to garanty(sp?) that we wouldn't kill or change anything.

[Sovereign]

Time machines are a paradox. Take the example that you can go forward into the future and see yourself. You would then travel back to present day, and most people would try to change their future. But that means that the future they saw could never exist because they just changed it, or that the one they saw was the changed one, but then that couldn't have been because they had not yet seen it to go back and change it.



Wrong. If you go ahead of time to see a future you, that means your future you, at a younger age, went forward in time to see his future self. Its a loop. Also, for time travel to work, the dimensions, universes or whatever, that constitute the place in time that you are in must be linked to each other in some way. What you are saying depends on that. Same with my theory.

There is a sort of "One way time machine" theory that can only get you into the future. Scientists, using the theory of relativity, state that as an object approaches the speed of light, time slows down for it. So, theoretically, if a spacecraft could attain the speed of light minus 1 mph, while one hour passes for you, a trillian years could have passed for the earth. You'd emerge from your 2-3 hour trip to notice that the sun has long since nova'd and there is nothing left of earth.

[Vollstrecker]

"Matter cant be created nor destroyed".

ugh

Following that philosophy, there would have to be another Universe/location where we got OUR Matter/Energy from (since it couldn't have been created here, and it's impossible for it to have existed for all time). We could follow that succession backwards ad infinitum as well. -.-

[Lenny]

This is like the Cosmological Arguement kinda. There's all these theories (against it) about The Big Bang, the Big Splat preceding it, String/M-theory, and there's the Oscillating UNiverse Theory. DOn't know if you've heard of the latter. If not, here's a rundown:

Our Universe is made up of a series of expanding and Contracting Universes.



Thing about all this is that it goes into the kinda sci-fi aspect of multipkle dimensions (M-theory, Osc. Universe theory) and makes it sound kinda...geeky. Hard to get your head round as well. Nice little bit of explanantion from a site I think was posted in this thread earlier:


M-theory
For the uninitiated, the ideas are difficult to grasp. At their heart is string theory, the idea that the fundamental building blocks of space and time are tiny vibrating strings. String theory has excited theorists in the past few years although it has remained very much untested.
Steinhardt's ideas about the origin of the Universe are based on an extension of string theory called M-theory.
M-theory does not do away with the Big Bang. The evidence that everything emerged from a 'fireball' with a temperature of 10 billion degrees, expanding on a timescale of one second, is now very compelling and uncontroversial.
Instead, M-theory looks at events before the Big Bang, proposing that the Universe has 11 dimensions, six of them rolled up into microscopic filaments that can, for all intents, be ignored.
Professor Sir Martin Rees of Cambridge University told BBC News Online: "Steinhardt and his colleagues offer a fascinating idea, invoking the idea of more than one universe embedded in higher-dimensional space."
The action of the Universe takes place in five-dimensional space. Before the Big Bang occurred the Universe consisted of two perfectly flat four-dimensional surfaces.
One of these sheets is our Universe; the other, a "hidden" parallel universe.
According to the Princeton researchers, random fluctuations in this unseen companion universe caused it to distort and reach towards our Universe.
The floater "splatted" into our Universe and the energy of the collision was transformed into the matter and energy of our Universe in a Big Bang.
According to Professor Sir Martin Rees: "All these ideas about the ultra-early universe highlight the link between cosmos and micro-world - the ideas won't be firmed up until we have a proper understanding of space and time, the 'bedrock' of the physical world."

This theory backs the Big SPlat theory (the Splat was the floater, it's in there somewhere).

[Mydogisyourdog]

it began because God was angry with one of his angels.

God: "Go to hell"

and here we are.

[Randuin]

I still think there's a Supreme being, if not god, something along the lines of... Q :P

[blckshdwdragon]

I still think there's a Supreme being, if not god, something along the lines of... Q :P

possible too, but who the hell knows until we get a time machine and send our selves back to the "beginning" :P that would solve all the questions, but seeing the future is completely different : / which is another concept:
for yourself to see yourself in the future is impossible since you leave your time line to see your future self, which means you leave your time line to see ahead in which you have are absent from seeing yourself: basicaly u are gone from the future time line cuz you arent there to have done future things. you would have to have someone else tell you your future who is a complete stranger to do so

[Randuin]

Well they have already achieved time travel in the sub atomic level (in the time frame of about 2x10^-10 ms?) But that aside, they've done it.

[Lenny]

I posted a little thing on time travel a little way back in this thread. Then someone proved me slightly wrong. I have warned you.