What constitutes an RPG?

[Raziel]

Okay, I'm setting the record straight once and for all. I've heard far too many people using the term "RPG elements" to describe games that have no resemblance to an RPG, whatsoever! The Legend of Zelda series is not an RPG series! It's a fucking adventure series!! Devil May Cry does not have "RPG-like" elements to it!! It's a fucking action game!!

These are the three rules that determine an RPG. No RPG must have all of these rules, but an RPG must have at least one of these things.

1) Combat is turn-based, allowing for greater depth of strategy and focusing on tactical maneuvers moreso than quick-response or hand-eye coordination.

2) The combat is handled in a multi-character party configuration. The management of a party of individuals, their equipment, stats and abilities is a focus of the game.

3) Character-building is based on experience points or some similar derivative (like FF10's skill grid). Character levels are the standard method of improvement, but other methods do exist.

Those are the three cardinal rules of an RPG. Without at least one of those rules, the game is not a fucking RPG.

Devil May Cry does not have "RPG-like" elements just because Dante can purchase new abilities with Red Orbs. Devil May Cry is an action game. The focus of the game is on, you guessed it, action. Not strategy, stat-building, party-management or story.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is not a goddamned RPG. It is an adventure game. It focuses on exploration and puzzle-solving, not strategy, stat-building, party-management or story.

STOP THROWING AROUND THE TERM "RPG" JUST TO DESCRIBE SOME GAME YOU LIKE. YES, WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE A FAN OF FINAL FANTASY 7, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY OTHER GAME YOU LIKE IS A GODDAMNED RPG. STOP IT. NOW.

[Senesia]

Zelaron.com is a RPG game!

[Raziel]

Explain that one.

[Senesia]

Characters earn experiences (postcount) and hopefully have some sort of improvements by doing so.

Turn based...battles. You post, I post, he posts, she posts.

Party configuration - bunch of idiots (I won't mention who...) started flooding the flame forum (or any forum) for the pure purpose of pissing the mods off.

[Raziel]

Well, that's a sketchy comparison at best. Post count doesn't equal experience or increased intelligence. Look at Randuin.

The turn-based argument actually works.

And the party-configuration would only really apply if one member was managing several different logins at once.

But, I did say that an RPG only requires one of those three rules, so I suppose (if Zelaron was a game) that it would be a fringe-RPG. Just barely, but it would still count.

[Senesia]

Some characters might have a cap in their abilities...

But on topic of things, it also annoys me when people say, "And the game has RPG elements in it too, you will like it if you like RPG!" while the game has nothing to do with a RPG game, at all.

[Raziel]

And "Pimpiroth's" comment about Devil May Cry is primarily the reason I started this thread. It just drives me fucking bonkers to see people toss that term around so willingly.

This is probably the most insulting example of that kind of statement that I've ever seen:

http://www.legacynexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2522

That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard!

[Senesia]

Only Zelda: OoT is considered real RPGs.

I don't know how I should react to that.

And I didn't know that RPGs are Roll Playing Games... so what exactly do they play, egg roll or spring roll?

[Raziel]

Pecan Roll, I think.

Than again, he might be confusing his games altogether. He might be actually thinking roll playing games, and confusing the title "Ocarina of Time" with "Super Monkey Ball".

[Senesia]

Hahaha!

So I see he still didn't take it at the end by saying "I don't care anymore."

But a LOT of people seem to think that Zelda series is an Action RPG...

[Acer]

I also beleive in items being randomly found, not set... like in Zelda which everything is where it is.

[Raziel]

I don't know what's so hard to understand about the term "adventure game". The Zelda games are adventure games, yet there are an overwhelmingly large number of people who insist that the word "adventure" is nowhere to be found In Zelda's genre title.

Action games revolve around action. Combat of some form is the focus. Action games are fast-paced and they test your reflexes and eye-hand coordination.

RPGs the polar opposite. They focus on details. They focus on stats. RPGs focus on character/party management, equipment management, experience gaining, level building, strategy and plot.

Adventure games focus on exploration and puzzle solving. Yes, many adventure games allow for your character to become stronger over time and have interesting plots. Yes, many adventure games have action elements in them. But the core of the game's design revolves around exploration and puzzle-solving. The Zelda games revolve around exploration and puzzle solving. Even the boss battles are puzzles! The Zelda games have always been adventure games, and people need to realize it. Now. My patience wears thin.

And yeah, BobtheDead just folded in the end. That's part of the reason why I dislike that forum so much. Try to argue with anyone and they just collapse like a house of cards.

[‡AC‡]

Party configuration - bunch of idiots (I won't mention who...) started flooding the flame forum (or any forum) for the pure purpose of pissing the mods off.

And "Pimpiroth's" comment about Devil May Cry is primarily the reason I started this thread. It just drives me fucking bonkers to see people toss that term around so willingly.

Anyone else see a connection?

[Dan XIII]

My brother never said DevilMayCry was an RPG. He said it had RPG elements.

[Acer]

They dont have to have all of those to be a RPG right? Is D2 an RPG? It isnt turn based like D&D

[RoboticSilence]

D2 uses elements from D&D but I don't consider it to be an RPG. It's too shitty.

[Dan XIII]

I never played D2 so I don't even know what kind of RPG elements it even would have.

[‡AC‡]

I never played D2 so I don't even know what kind of RPG elements it even would have.
Stat building

but, its suppose to be an action game

[Dan XIII]

Stat building

but, its suppose to be an action game Stat building is a big thing in RPG's but that doesn't automatically make it an RPG though.

[!King_Amazon!]

Technically if you play the role of a character in any game, it is considered a role playing game.

Pwnt.

[Tyrannicide]

Here is something to make it easier. Look at what the game is officially rated. Its right on the box or package or case it comes in. That makes sence doesn't it. That determines weather u can call a game an RPG, or Action, or Adventure or Action Adventure and so forth.

[Acer]

I lable you gay, now are you gay? lol j/k

[Tyrannicide]

And I now label u a piece of shit. Cause my old computer is a Acer pc and its a piece of shit.

[Acer]

read the thread how every got their names... you will see my name isnt the computer acer :)

[Rurouni Storm]

Umm, battles don't have to be turn based, look at Secret of Mana.

[Senesia]

If the game has any one of the three, he said.

Secret of Mana has party and character improvement through level (if I remember correctly) :p

[Acer]

I think this is flat out the answer... a RPG can be action, adv, or w/e... but you must play the role of something. This pretty much includes the upgrading of characters... but xp/levels maybe isn't the only way.

[Rurouni Storm]

I think Acer's got the point. An RPG is a game where you play the main character how you wish (instead of an adventure game where you just solve problems so that the almost completely linear plot can continue). I mean, a lot of people consider Diablo an RPG, when I consider it an action game.

I must state, however, that my favourite games are strategy RPGs like FF:Tactics.

[!King_Amazon!]

Diablo is not an RPG. The character you play is not a specific character to a specific storyline, but yet a character which you specify in a static story line.

[Senesia]

Then, would people consider a Sim game as a RPG? If they are just using the reason of "playing the role of something?"

[Acer]

I think by role, they mean role of a character/person. I don't know much about SIMs but if you play the role of one person the maybe

[Raziel]

Okay, no. Just simply "playing the role" of a character does not make it an RPG. By that standard, every Sim game on the market is an RPG. In SimCity you play as the mayor of your budding new city and can develop said city in any way you wish. SimCity is not a friggin' RPG.

The three rules I listed are the three core traits that any traditional RPG uses. Like I said, and RPG only has to have one of the three rules.

An RPG is a game where you play the main character how you wish (instead of an adventure game where you just solve problems so that the almost completely linear plot can continue

I don't agree with that in the slightest. How is playing the role of a predetermined character like Cloud from FF7 any different than playing the role of a predetermined character like Link? There's no difference. To define an RPG, you must look at the gameplay, and the three gameplay rules I listed are the foundation of any traditional RPG. Adventure games focus on exploration and puzzle solving, RPGs focus on stat-building, combat strategy and party management.

[!King_Amazon!]

Since when do you make the rules on what makes a game what?

Look at the name. Role Playing Game. That means a game in which you play the role of a character.

role-playing game
n.
A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance, as by the roll of dice.

[Acer]

Yes, so making Zelda not a RPG as said, cuz everything in the game is static.

I dont know much about FF, but it has random stuff in there? Which makes it a RPG?

[Senesia]

That would mean a game with a linear plot cannot be a RPG, which isn't true at all.

[Tyrannicide]

read the back of the game case. it tells u.

[!King_Amazon!]

Yes, so making Zelda not a RPG as said, cuz everything in the game is static.

I dont know much about FF, but it has random stuff in there? Which makes it a RPG?

Monsters don't drop the same items every time, so there is some randomness.

[Acer]

Yeah I didn't think of that when I wrote it.

[Senesia]

...No. Static or not, it doesn't matter. A RPG can be very linear without much randomness.

It is the focus of the game. An adventure game put emphasis on area such as puzzle solving and adventuring. For example, the Silent Hill series. But there is indeed a lot of actions in many adventure games, so personally I don't mind people calling a Adventure game as an Action-Adventure... But Adventure-RPG? No. Not unless it does have RPG elements in it. (Upgrading or finding weapons isn't a RPG element, by the way.)

Just in what games are you NOT playing a role of something? (Pong, Minesweeper, Tetris... you don't have to answer this question.) Well, even in the Gran Turismo series, you are playing a role of someone. Or the Championship Manager series, where you are playing the role of a Soccer Manager. In fighting games, you are controlling the characters you've selected, and play his role during the fight.

Just because we get to play a role of something in a game does not make it a RPG game.

[Raziel]

Since when do you make the rules on what makes a game what?

Look at the name. Role Playing Game. That means a game in which you play the role of a character.

role-playing game
n.
A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance, as by the roll of dice.


First of all, King, that definition you used is in reference to paper and pencil RPGs, in which a player actually plays the role of an original character. We're talking about console RPGs, and in a console RPG, that definition does not apply. It does not apply, because 95% of console RPGs use predetermined characters.

All of the Final Fantasy games are 90% static. You don't create your own character, they have their own pre-written lines, and the actual interactive story elements (i.e. "Do I take Aeris on a date or Tifa?") are few and far between. Therefore, your Webster's definition of a Role Playing game does not work in this situation.

A video game RPG always has one of the three elements I have listed. I did not make these rules up, I'm simply clarifying them. It's the same thing as if I was saying "All platform games contain some form of platforming action and usually some platform-based puzzles." I'm simply stating a fact.


Monsters don't drop the same items every time, so there is some randomness.

By your definition, if Final Fantasy is an RPG (meaning that some of the randomness comes from the items an enemy drops) then Zelda and Metal Gear Solid are RPGs as well. You play the role of Link, and there's no definite answer as to whether a recently killed Moblin will drop rupees, arrows, bombs, magic jars or some other weird artifact like a Joy Pendant. The same goes for MGS. You play the role of Solid Snake, and if you kill an enemy, you can pick them up and shake extra items out of their clothing. It could be SOCOM ammo, FA-MAS ammo, Rations or any number of other items. Zelda and Metal Gear Solid are not RPGs though, therefore, this discredits your Webster's definition even further.

I'm not making this shit up, I'm simply stating a fact. Console RPGs focus on level building, party management and combat strategy. Platformers focus on platforming action and action-based puzzles. Adventure games focus on exploration and puzzles. First Person Shooters focus on shooting from a first-person perspective, utilizing speed and accuracy for stealth and headshots. That's simply the way it is. I'm not making it up, it's plain fact.

[Grav]

IM GONNA USE THAT FOR MY THESIS

[Raziel]

Go right ahead. Make sure to tie it in to "turkey sandwiches" somehow, though.

[Acer]

The role of a character... like a hero, someone with a story.

[Raziel]

Acer, you play the role of the main character in almost every game ever made.

Mario is a hero, he has a story. Is Super Mario Sunshine an RPG?

Samus is a hero, she has a story. Is Metroid Prime an RPG?

Crash Bandicoot is a hero, he has a story. Is Crash Bandicoot an RPG?

Do you understand what Senesia is saying now? Just because you play the role of a character, that does not make the game an RPG. RPGs use at least one of the three rules I listed earlier. If it doesn't have one of those three things, it's not a damned RPG. Period.

[Acer]

I also agreed there has to be some kind of random item drops, and/or character development.

[!King_Amazon!]

Raziel, what you are trying to do is clasify every single game into a single category. I'm not saying MGS isn't a FPS, I'm just saying it's also an RPG.

And I'm going by definition. You seem to be pulling "rules" out of your ass, since I've never seen anyone but you set those rules in stone.

[Silent Beck]

Now to be perfectly fair rpg merely means Role Playing Game a game in which you play as another character and make decisions for that character fits a loose definition of an RPG. On another note, we can all agree that dungeons and dragons is an RPG. D&D created the roll playing genre yet that does not require maintainance of a party it can be played by one person with one pc, its just slightly less interesting

[Raziel]

Raziel, what you are trying to do is clasify every single game into a single category. I'm not saying MGS isn't a FPS, I'm just saying it's also an RPG.

Okay then, King, by that definition every game ever made is an RPG. You cool with that? Because, if every game is technically an RPG, then the term shouldn't even exist. All games shouldn't be called "RPGs" they should just be called "games". So, why don't we just toss that term out altogether, hm? Why don't we start calling RPGs something more accurate, like "Epics". There's a reason the term RPG exists in regards to console games, and it's not to identify a game where you simply "play the role" of the lead character. Every game in the world does that, King.

And I'm going by definition. You seem to be pulling "rules" out of your ass, since I've never seen anyone but you set those rules in stone.

King, I want you to take a look at every traditional RPG in existence, okay? Examples would be games like Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger. What core gameplay conepts do all of those games employ? Stat building, party management and combat strategy. Look at any other traditional RPG in history, and the same rules apply. I'm not pulling anything out of my ass, the facts are sitting right in front of your eyes. The idea that you're incapable of identifying those facts is more than a little disheartening to me.

Now to be perfectly fair rpg merely means Role Playing Game a game in which you play as another character and make decisions for that character fits a loose definition of an RPG. On another note, we can all agree that dungeons and dragons is an RPG. D&D created the roll playing genre yet that does not require maintainance of a party it can be played by one person with one pc, its just slightly less interesting

YOU "PLAY THE ROLE OF THE LEAD CHARACTER" IN EVERY GAME EVER MADE. IS EVERY GAME EVER MADE AN RPG? NO.

That definition only applies to paper and pencil RPGs. Console RPGs are a completely different type of game, people. Console RPGs refer to a game that focuses on stat building, party management and combat strategy.

[Acer]

If the game has a purpose for the character, a real story line, development etc then it depends on you how that character will grow... giving you the role of that character... RPG

[Raziel]

Oh my God, for the love of Christ, stop fucking saying that. ACER, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I POST THIS TIME.

Samus is a hero, she has a purpose, she has a story that develops, Metroid Prime is not an RPG, it is an adventure game.

Solid Snake is a hero, he has a purpose, he has a story that develops, Metal Gear Solid is not an RPG, it is an espionage game.

Dante is a hero, he has a purpose, he has a story that develops, Devil May Cry is not an RPG, it is an action game.

Is this making any sense to you yet, or do I need to spell it out phoenetically for you?

[Senesia]

This thread makes me want to cast Lv 5 Magic missiles.

[Raziel]

Does it make you want to cast them at the darkness?

(Really vague reference there...)

[Acer]

AND FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST READ WHAT I FUCKING SAID... all the things you pointed out was story development... I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPMENT OF A STORY... I am talking about the character

You have to be the most bitchy person on zelaron... you get all technical with everything... you spelt this wrong, rpg is this, blah blah blah. Can you sit for one second and relize this. Its hard to read what you say when you take 1 sentence and go on about it. I pretty much agree with you first post.

Now, if I have spelt anything wrong or any grammer is wrong... keep it to yourself cuz I really dont give a fuck.

[!King_Amazon!]

spelt

Spelled*

Raz, you're saying Pre-console RPGs have different rules than console RPGs? That's like saying turkey on a turkey sandwich is different from turkey in gravy. ITS ALL STILL TURKEY BITCH.

[Raziel]

Raz, you're saying Pre-console RPGs have different rules than console RPGs? That's like saying turkey on a turkey sandwich is different from turkey in gravy. ITS ALL STILL TURKEY BITCH.

There's a monstrous difference between a pencil and paper RPG and a console RPG, mainly because P&P RPGs are completely open-ended. You are free to create and do whatever the hell you want, even break the rules. You are not restricted, and as such, the game allows you to actually role play your created character.

Console RPgs are a compeltely different thing. You are 100% confined by the rules of the game's design, you don't create your own character, you make a minimal number of intereactive plot-affecting decisions and you progress through a generally set-in-stone plot. Because of this, the term "role-playing" does not work within the confines of a video game. Therefore, using the term "Role Playing Game" in conjunction with a video game means that you have to attach different attributes to said term. Simply "playing the role" of the lead character in a video game does not make it an RPG. You do that in all video games. An RPG in the video game sense has a different definition than a role-playing game in the originally intended paper and pencil sense.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST READ WHAT I FUCKING SAID... all the things you pointed out was story development... I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPMENT OF A STORY... I am talking about the character

Solid Snake's character develops throughout Metal Gear Solid. MGS is not an RPG.

Jade's character develops throughout Beyond Good & Evil. BG&E is not an RPG.

Dante's character develops throughout Devil May Cry. DMC is not an RPG.

You have to be the most bitchy person on zelaron... you get all technical with everything... you spelt this wrong, rpg is this, blah blah blah. Can you sit for one second and relize this. Its hard to read what you say when you take 1 sentence and go on about it. I pretty much agree with you first post.

Acer, if it's so fucking hard to follow what I'm saying, why the hell do you keep responding? I'm not going to dumb my posts down just so your shriveled brain can play catch up. If you can't follow what I'm saying, stop arguing with me.

Now, if I have spelt anything wrong or any grammer is wrong... keep it to yourself cuz I really dont give a fuck.

When, at any point in time, have I gotten on your ass about grammar? Hm? Have I done it at all in this thread? In any thread prior to this? No. So stop your goddamned bitching.

[Rurouni Storm]

Actually, I consider BG&E to be an action RPG. It's about as much of an RPG as Diablo. ;)

True, it doesn't follow the rules you mentioned and is mostly an action game, but it does slant a bit towards RPGs in game style.

"I'm, I'm attacking the darkness!"

[Rurouni Storm]

All of the Final Fantasy games are 90% static. You don't create your own character, they have their own pre-written lines, and the actual interactive story elements (i.e. "Do I take Aeris on a date or Tifa?") are few and far between. Therefore, your Webster's definition of a Role Playing game does not work in this situation.


Have you played FF1? It's not really that static .You create your own party and can pretty much explore all you want for most of the game. There isn't nearly as much plot as the later games, though.

[WetWired]

YOU "PLAY THE ROLE OF THE LEAD CHARACTER" IN EVERY GAME EVER MADE. I have to dispute this. There is this genre called "puzzle games", and another called "card games". The vast majority of games in these genres do not involve a lead character or any roleplaying.

[Arkantis]

I read the first 3 pages, this is what an rpg is.
An rpg is a game where you are in control of your character(s) life and abilities, such as the sphere grid in ff10 or the skill tree in daiblo 2. If you can fully customize your character in a way that is unique to yourself it is an RPG. There should also be character progression in an RPG.
If there is no customization (Zelda) then its not an RPG.
If there is no way to change what happens by the path you choose for your character, its not an rpg. (I mean like, if you don’t put points into strength in daiblo, you wont be able to use better armor and high strength wepons.)
If a role playing game is where you played the role of someone, almost any game would be a role playing game. Role playing games in my opinion should take more than 20 hours to beat.
(just my opinions)

[Medieval Bob]

That was actually referenced earlier in the thread.

Also, "attacking the darkness" isn't a vague reference in my mind. I'd assume that most gamers have heard that skit.

[Acer]

Not hard to follow what you saying... just annoying and a waste of time to read a post 20x longer than it should be. Tho I most likely have to read it because it might say something that would change my reply. You might state something I am going to say etc... understand my point?

You don't need to dumb what you say down for anyone... I just find no reason to be so complex and detailed on a fucking forum. I mean, if you were telling a story... go ahead.

!King_Amazon! I seen something like that coming lol. Did I spell coming right?

[!King_Amazon!]

seen

Saw*

I'm tired of debating. Let's all eat pie and play D&D.

[Acer]

HEHE I love D&D, me and MarkiX play it a lot, he is right about how you can bend/break the rules and the game is unlimited. That is why I love playing it.

[Raziel]

That's also why it's a role-playing game.

[Acer]

Yes it is, I totally agree on that... that is actually how I consider a game RPG or not. If the game has any D&D type stuff in it(like the 3 things you pointed out) then to me it is an RPG.