In need of good UD/Orc strat

[Vollstrecker]

Anyone have any good ideas for a UD/Orc AT strategy for TFT?

Our current plan is my friend masses a few ghouls, and I mass some trolls, and we go roll. Beyond that, I just keep pumping trolls and he switches to Fiends. Unfortunately, this hasn't gotten us past lvl 3. It seems to be an all-or-nothing deal.

Just mainly looking for some pointers. Usual hero setup is Far Seer and Crypt Lord. I can also supply replays for an example.

Thanks for any help!

[allanonx]

im in ROC and not tft but it's pretty much the same. i go crypt, zig ,crypt ,altar. keeppumping ghouls get dl ill have more than 12 ghouls by 1 and half day in war3 time from the begining of the game. then i attack. if you 1 on 1 then crypt, zig ,altar grave, halls of dead, crypt, fiends. dread lord then dk and if you want lich. but basically i win in the first 5 minutes so i dont worry much about later. and i expand like crazy while i rush/harass/distract.

[Vollstrecker]

Me and my buddy usually roll like this:

He pumps out a Death Knight and like 5-7 ghouls

I pop out a Far Seer and hit the Trolls early on, as they're cheaper ad faster to build than grunts. Usually get 4-5.

Then we rush sometime early in first night.

I can provide a replay, if you wish.

[Medieval Bob]

I don't understand why you wouldn't put up altar first... The first hero is free, and it's important to have him to creep first.

[Vollstrecker]

Was that in reply to me? I always hit and altar and a burrow first. When I get the money. then I start my barracks. Anyway, I need my Spirit Wolves to scout for me anyway.

[Pekson]

Yes altar borrow first comes first with orc. Dont need for scout you can tell by the map where abouts your opponents are. Just use your spirit wolves to go to their base and target the hero with them while you micro your hero around. My friend has a HHunter strat which works all the time his level 24. For undead gouls is no thnx just go cyptfiends, easy to micro.

[Vollstrecker]

Well, the point of the ghouls is that you can get them FAST. We go for speed, normally, instead of hitting power... That may be our problem.

Also, if we're 2v2-ing on a 6-8 player map, it's kinda necessary to scout while I'm building Trolls.

[Pekson]

Ghouls die too quickly. No point using DK death coil on those weaklings. Just have 3 ghouls on wood and that is all.

[Vollstrecker]

Ghouls die too quickly. No point using DK death coil on those weaklings. Just have 3 ghouls on wood and that is all.

I know they die easily. When they got my trolls backing, we usually end up doing alright. Of course, this only really works well on small maps though.

So, my friend rolling on UD needs to switch to Fiends? That'll set us behind a little bit, but it may work a bit better. IF he switches to Fiends, should I switch to Gruntapult?

[Pekson]

It either you use Headhunters whole game with Tauren or gruntapult dont switch. It will work far better if your friend goes fiends with statues. If he goes fiends go grunt tauren and healers or the bloodlust casters. You both can use ranged if you want, coz your friend can have ABOMS.

[Vollstrecker]

He always has a few statues along with his army. I'm assuming you want him to develop Destroyer form, as an anti-air measure? My Tauren aren't going to do anything versus air. Normally, my favorite setup includes: 2-3 Heroes / A few Grunts(Taurens late-game) / A lot of Headhunters/Berserkers / A group of casters.

Problem is, we either win or lose as a result of our beginning rush.

[Dar_Win]

That isnt a bad idea voll but as pekson said they die fast... so might not help alot.

[Vollstrecker]

My friend is logging on tonight, we'll try some new builds against computer to get them fast. I'll post results later.

[allanonx]

omg!! everyone here are high, drunk, or newbs... ghouls dont die if you have dread lord..idiots.. vamp aura.. you only need maximum of 2 ghouls on wood...by the end of the first day i have 12 ghouls out dreadlord and dk coming with crypt fiends in the making..never altar first in ud. i usually go crypt, zig, crypt, altar..never lost that way
...
newbs...no offence but you guys just dont know how to play ud

[Pekson]

Allanonx VAMP AURA dont do SH$#@....2 ghouls on wood isnt enough to sustain a FIEND build =\ but probably sustain a crappy ghoul build. High? drunk? are you kidding your the high drunk one, dont worry you will soon learn the ways of how to play well just like starcraft =\ the day i joined ya clan for a day and PWNED! I do know what im talking about.

Voll yes develop destroyer form only for anti MAGIC especially the abuse from humans with their slow and their area of effect spells. You dont need anti air you have WEB from fiends. Also use destroyer against fairy dragons or watever negative spells they have on ur units.

[allanonx]

well..im on roc so..i dont know any about tft.. iplayed tft once and it's pretty much the same but i get statues... anyways...2 is enough because while i build up to 12 ghouls i have all the ghouls harvest and i have about 2k to 3k i think..lumber..so it works..and i go to crypt fiend right after and then gargs too for fun like 6 gargs 12 fiends 6 ghouls
dk dl..and i rool with it..but it's roc it might be diff in tft

[Pekson]

Didnt know you were on ROC, yes it is different.

[Maleficus]

volls, if you want to go early game like that youll want sleep over carrion, and use vamp aura for mana reasons. the only way to win with ghouls is sleep surround, they are weak units but they are meant for en masse or early game, my friend and i go huntress ghoul, early game we sleep/entangle and surround and it gets us levels while their heroes rebuild, post a replay if you need anything else, and i can post too

[Vollstrecker]

Basically, I'm looking for a good early game rush that will not cost us the game if we lose. Maybe it's our timing on a tp out???

[Pekson]

If your thinking about rush with ghouls and watever it really only works against NE. Unless your opponents are real crap. If somone going ghouls then his ally must be human or orc and go tower rush em. Mostly NE opponent it will work.

Dont even use TP unless you really have to, all you guys are just wasting your money.

[Vollstrecker]

Well, basically, there's 3 ways our rush goes:

1.) Easy Victory
Usually, we only accomplish this versus opponents teching and/or newbie opponents. Basically, we run in, smash opponent #1 and beat down his ally's troops that were sent in. Then, we smash the ally.

2.) Drawn-out Failure
This is where we attack, and usually run into a similar size force. Since our micro skills are a little lacking, we end up losing most of ours troops and we retreat to town for phase 2. Phase 2 is usually where we get killed, as we usually can't macro very well while on the attack.

3.) Dismal Failure
This is where we rush, and we run into some pros. They either have a similar force or more troops, and great micro. We get smote, retreat, and get smote before phase 2 ever really happens.

I'd like to be able to make more games like #1, and to be able to recover from a #2 effectively. As far as recovering goes, we'll need to practice being faster, that's about it.

Sounds like macro during battle will become something we'll need to practice. So, if he switches to fiends, we'll have a good stage 1 developed?

[Maleficus]

what level are you?

[allanonx]

If your thinking about rush with ghouls and watever it really only works against NE. Unless your opponents are real crap. If somone going ghouls then his ally must be human or orc and go tower rush em. Mostly NE opponent it will work.

Dont even use TP unless you really have to, all you guys are just wasting your money.
hey pekson.. in roc which is similar to tft, ghouls are great with vamp aura
i usually go with 10 to 12 ghouls against about 3 to 6 enemy units, and i usually win , meanwhile i start pumping fiends and zigs and i micro during the ghoul battle. i get another lvl really quickly and get sleep then. no use getting sleep first practically...

[Pekson]

Well, basically, there's 3 ways our rush goes:

1.) Easy Victory
Usually, we only accomplish this versus opponents teching and/or newbie opponents.

There you go newbie opponents or techers. Once you reach a reasonable level none of your rushes will work, you will get out microed or out whatever.

Allanonx do you play 1v1 or 2v2? Yes it might work for you but not all the time. Dont anyone take this the wrong way but how many wins and losses do you have? Its rather close im thinking like 50wins to 40losses....Try 15+ wins for nil (thats hard enough to get on AT) using your guys ghoul/rush strat on AT.

Ghouls really are only good when they have ghoul frenzy.

Orcs are great harassers, just send farseer, cast wolves target hero and micro around their troops, and eventually their hero is on red life or dead. Once that happens run back and regroup your men and then harrass again. This does require micro tho.

Fiends more easier than ghouls to micro coz they have more life and are bigger.

[Vollstrecker]

@Maleficus We're merely Level 3 in TFT.

@Allanonx Ghouls do have a tendency to die quickly, even with Vamp Aura. 15% of 13 average damage is 2 hp gained back... If they're focusing on 1 ghoul at a time, the DK's Death Coil restoring the Ghoul to almost full status is much more useful in my opinion.

@Pekson Well, as our micro improves, we can match or beat theirs. My point is to put the hurt on them early on, or even take 1 out. So, should we hero harass with DK/FS?

[allanonx]

Allanonx do you play 1v1 or 2v2? Yes it might work for you but not all the time. Dont anyone take this the wrong way but how many wins and losses do you have? Its rather close im thinking like 50wins to 40losses....Try 15+ wins for nil (thats hard enough to get on AT) using your guys ghoul/rush strat on AT.


thats pretty ture..my win rate is like that but this is the account i started on. anyways. i usually do crypt zig altar not 2 crypts..its too risky. i only do on 4v4. i usually do 4v4 cuz i dont have to worry about enemies much but nowadays i do 1v1.lvl 5 in like 6 games i guess

[Pekson]

Yes HARASS is the KEY with DK and FS while your barracks men are rally pointed to your hero so your men would travel to wherever your hero is. So while your wolves chase around the enemies hero and he is weakened, a DK can death coil him to finish him off, if his not already dead. Remember dont use Death coil if you dont have to, you need it in battle situations. Try not to lose a unit, coz with me the first fiend i build 90% of the time will survive till the end of the match. With orc you can do that to.

For undead dont go altar first. If you plan to hero rush. An orc can do it by himslef. Until when the undead player is ready.

Vamp aura with the ghouls frenzy upgraded is good but in early game its no thnx.

[Vollstrecker]

hmmm...

Think we might do better if my ally switches to Humans? He can pull off a hero harass with me, but we'd lack healing ability if he went Archmage.

Or, do you think it would be better if I tried to tower rush instead of hero harass?

[Pekson]

I dont know much about humans i dont play them i only play orc and undead =P. One thing i know is that human in 1.13 or was it 1.12 they're full on abuse race, with slow which lasts like forever and their bloody bloodmages takes away my mana on all my units its BS.