Quarter-Finals! Mega Man X vs. Cloud

[Raziel]

Arena: Bamboo Grove

In the Red Corner, the chrome-plated Maverick Hunter, the Blue Bomber 2.0, from Mega Man X: Mega Man X!!!

And in the Blue Corner, the jade-eyed schizophrene, the master of the Buster Sword, from Final Fantasy 7: Cloud Strife!!!

The sky is coated in a thick blanket of dark thunderheads. The wind whips through the bamboo stalks, creating a sea of violent, swaying arms. X surveys the area, standing at the bottom of the hills' steep slope. Cloud works his way through the tempest of bamboo, slowly creeping down from the top of the incline. As the two catch each others' eyes through the chaos, a heavy rain begins to fall. The violence of the storm is such that any normal person would have to be insane to reamin exposed to it. Our two combatants begin their initial charges, and the fight begins in earnest. There can be only one...

[Titusfied]

Ahhh, a great match-up here indeed.

While I reveer Cloud as my favorite character of all time in any game I've played, I just think he might be outclassed in this one folks. Senesia has made me quite the believer in X over the last few battles, and this one should be a doozy!

[Raziel]

Well, let's see some action, people! It's been open for 24 hours and nothing has happened! Frankly, I think Cloud might win this one. Let's see someone step up to bat!

[Sovereign]

Everytime cloud would try to win, mega man can just skimmer up one of the bamboo branches like hes does walls in any of his games. Then when cloud passes him, he can simply fall down, and shoot the hell out of could. In the end, due to his higher crebral fuctions (processing power in the head, he is a computer after all), mega man will rein victorious over the charred remnants of cloud strife.

[!King_Amazon!]

Bamboo trees? Perfect for cloud to chop down sending X to the ground.

[Sovereign]

X=robot. Robot=metal. Metal=strong. Mega man x is made from an extremely powerful alloy. He can fall and still not be damaged. If cloud wants to waste his time chopping down trees liek a lumbarjack thast fine. Even if he gets one when x is there, when x is falling, he could just aim upwards, and fire shots right through clouds skull. When cloud charges him, all x has to do, with his immensially powerful legs, is jump up high in the air to avoid him.

[Medieval Bob]

Well... shooting and jumping are hardly the specialties of X. You should have said he double jumped to avoid Cloud. That's a more feasable way to avoid an opponent, and, since he has the ability, why make use of it?

My argument would begin with the metallic nature of X giving him a certain defense against any attack with a sword. Secondly, I would say that he would at least attempt to use the Zero Saber against Cloud. Cloud would not be able to block it as it is a beam. Aside from that bit of information, the Zero Saber does immense damage to all enemies. I believe it took two hits with the Z-Saber to kill Sigma. (It may have been three, but I'm not sure, although two hits are required for all other bosses - This may vary from game to game. The only game I know of that X uses the Zero Saber is in X-3.)

[Senesia]

Cloud doesn't stand a chance if X uses Ultimate Armor (X6). Unlimited Gaia attack.

Basically, Ultimate Armor allows X to use Nova Strike indefinitely. In the air, on the ground, during a jump, during his second jump, dashing...X will be invulnerable when he executes it. It is a (sort of) mid-air dash which destroys/damages everything on its way.

What's the downside of this attack? X can't change direction during Nova Strike, so it can be avoided somehow. (But it is extremely fast, and it does have some sort of area of effect...)
(But then again, you can't change direction in any 2D game because there is only 2 dimensions...)

Anyway, Ultimate Armor can be used only if you enter a code on the selection screen.

So...he will probably use Blade Armor for this fight.

With his Blade Armor:
- His charged X-Buster shot will leave a energy field which damage the enemy
- His Z-Sabre attack is more powerful
- can choose to release a powerful slash attack when charged
- His dash has a greater range
- He can damage the enemy simply by air-dashing
- can air-dash in all 4 directions
- can hover in air
- He sends a powerful slash attack forward, which will deal a lot of damage if hit. (Shockwave kind of attack.)
- can charge up Maverick weapon
- Weapon energy comsumption reduced by 1/3
- Damage taken reduced by 1/2
- No recoil (stun) when taken damage

Parts:
D-Barrier - Doubles the invulnerability time after X has taken a hit.
D-Converter - Convert damage into weapon energy.
Buster Plus - Increase X-buster damage
U-Buster - Always fire charged shot. (Can unlease charged Z-Saber as well.)

Limited Part:
Life Recover - An extra Sub Tank, basically.

Blade Armor is capable of carrying 2 E-Tanks and 1 W-Tank.


(I'm running out of time, schoolwork..)

[Titusfied]

Cloud has fought more worthy opponents in my mind in FFVII, namely the Ultimate Weapons, Emerald and Ruby, so this is in no way a cut and dry match as some may be making it out to be.

[Raziel]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Titus on this. There's a big difference between a robot having defenses against a normal sword, and a robot having defenses against the Ultima Weapon. Hell, the Ultima Weapon isn't even technically metal, it's a weird half-energy, half matter composite if anything.

X running on Bamboo? Please. He's made of fucking metal! A goddamn babmoo shoot isn't going to hold him up any more than it would a Howitzer.

And let's not neglect the weather conditions...

[sh0e]

edited for minor grammar adjustments and restructuring of the text.. apparently that is important

Imo including bamboo in this fight is pointless;
one character is using a giant blade and the other is using high energy mech destroying weapons... the entire field would be barren in the first 10 seconds of fighting.

Is the "hadoken" ability of X in Megaman X legal?
This ability is, after all, not entered as a cheat code but rather a secret ability that can be found in the armadillo stage that is designed to be very difficult to obtain.
In any case, due to the fact that Cloud is from a RPG game, he doesnt move that much even when being attacked.
The "hadoken" ability of X is a one hit kill on everything it is capable of hitting in Megaman X.
Therefore, X should not have a hard time hitting Cloud with a "hadoken" and ending the battle.

If "hadoken" is not allowed, or using the structure of an rpg game as a weakness is unfair, or maybe you say that cloud can deflect the "hadoken" with his sword:
X never seems to get tired from all the running and dashing he does in all the games he is in, so I think it would be safe to say he has infinite movement endurance. So, X could run and dash around until the end of time with Cloud chasing him around with his gigantic blade in tow.
Now, given the aforementioned infinite movement, and the addition of the aiming laser and the head upgrade (allowing X to use the laser infinitely) from Megaman X4, not only can X run around forever keeping a safe distance and preventing most possible chances for Cloud to deal damage, but X can run around forever shooting a laser that aims automatically with Cloud cursing and screaming in frustration.
Cloud would eventually succumb to the laser or run out of breath.

[Titusfied]

Post here, this is ridiculous. This is a big match and no one is putting in much of an arguement for either side...

[Xenn]

My two favorite characters... you can't do this to me!

EDIT: But it'd be cool if X won, and X fought Sigma in the Finals.

[sh0e]

Apparently, Cloud is able to fly in kingdom hearts, which could be a huge advantage.
I could see Cloud flying around and then shooting things like meteorain or finishing touch or blade beam, but those would take time to do while X can continuously shoot. Added also X has an assortment of different style weapons.. including one that can automatically aim.
Of course being the Cloud's Ultima Weapon is extremely powerful it may be possible for Cloud to use the sword as a shield blocking any attempted projectiles sent by X.
Cloud could.. for example.. while in flight, charge at X (perhaps from behind) with sword in front blocking projectiles and then get in close for an omnislash or cross slash or whatever.
X may whip out the saber up close too.. but i don't think the saber would be as powerful as the Ultima Weapon.
X may be able to dash away in time as well though.

[Titusfied]

Cloud will win if no one else steps in. ;)

[Kuja]

Just a few thing.

meteorain, finishing touch, blade beam, cross slash or omnislash are Limit Break so cloud need to be hurt lot to use them once. So he cannot use them often.

Cloud never blocked any projectile with his sword. So it's either cause he aint skilled enought to do it or that the sword wouldnt resist. So it's most likely not skilled enought.

[!King_Amazon!]

Or maybe it was because because he was mostly in RPGs, where you dodge, I don't remember anyone "blocking."

If I remember correctly, in either Ergheiz or Kingdom Hearts, I'm 95% sure he blocked with his sword.

[Senesia]

In terms of Mobility, X has the advantage here. His movement is fast, he can double jump, air-dash, double air-dash in some series with leg upgrade, hovering, (In Blade Armor), deal damage to enemy during air-dash, dash jump, wall jump, (No wall in this arena, but he can...) Kick jump right off the wall, which, I think he can do that using the Bamboo.

Keep in mind that he is fully capable of attacking while he's jumping, dashing, etc. His fast movements will not reduce his abilities to attack.

As I have mentioned in my previous post, with U-Buster equipped, X can shoot fully charged shot everytime, or use his charged Z-Saber. The power of charged Z-Saber is not to be underestimated, for it destroys most enemies in one hit. Of course, Cloud could block it, but it may give such an impact which will break his blocking and give X another chance to attack.

His charged shot will leave an energy field (which stays for a few seconds) and it will deal damage to the enemies. This would restrict Cloud's movement. X can even take the defensive stance, keeping a distance from Cloud and just shoot Charged Buster at Cloud. (It consumes no energy)

When Cloud gets near, X can either pull out his Z-Saber, or double jump/Air-dash away. (I forgot to mention, X is semi-invulnerable in his Air-dash. Like...he only takes damage when he's close to landing, which should be far away.)

What if X gets hit? From the previous battle, I've mentioned his D-Barrier. X will be invulnerable for the next few seconds after he gets hit. It is not possible to land multiple hits to X. By equipping the D-Barrier part, the length of his invulnerable period doubles. So, keep that in mind.

I haven't even taken the charged Maverick weapons into account yet. Most of the maverick weapons are deadly when charged, (whole screen attack, such as meteor shower, acid rain, etc) the downside is that they consume energy. With blade armor however, the energy consumptions are just 1/3. X has 1 W-Tank which complete refills every single weapon X has. (8 in total) All of the charged Maverick weapons will deal damage to the opponent. (they may not do full damage every time, but moderate damage is unavoidable)

About the weather condition, I don't see how it will effect X. Well, X has fought under water, and it hardly has any effect on his performance. (Except the fact the he could jump and dash even further...)

P.S. One more thing, I don't think you can block energy shoot. Charged Shot are pure (Or mainly) energy.

[sh0e]

do i detect a little bias titusfied? heh

it can be blocked.. there are numerous examples in the game
ones i can take off the top of my head are:
mmx1: armored armadillo uses padding on his arm
mmx4: split mushroom stage.. while running up the stairs those machines with the movable shields
mmx4: frost walrus stage the miniboss in certain forms creates a shell that blocks attacks

in any case being that Ultima Weapon isn't even technically metal, it's a weird half-energy, half matter composite if anything i would think that it should have the ability to deflect any concentrated energy in the form of projectiles or at the very least be able to absorb the impact or partially the energy in the shot

cloud can fly.. thus the energy field left behind doesnt leave a lot of hindrance.. slight change of his course in flying to go around the field would solve that and the field doesnt last forever.. additionally, the buster takes charging time to shoot the power shot

and now a huge disadvantage that i have now thought of for X is that his buster can only shoot horizontally.. imagine cloud flying higher than X can jump.. this would render the buster virtually useless against cloud as well as some other weapons

bleh nvm its raining heavily
in any case i dont think the bamboo could hold up X
and would quickly be cleared out with a couple of shots from X

btw the weather and the bamboo was most likely intended to give cloud an advantage.. being able to hide within the bamboo forest and the weather bolstering his lightning based attacks
but i dont think it works because the energy weapons of X would easily clear out the entire forest with little to no effort (he would probably do it unintentionally just shooting) and i seriously doubt cloud would be stupid enough to try to charge X head on being that X could murder him with projectiles.. thus cloud would use his ability to fly
and cloud casting spells would take too much time while X just blasts the hell out of him as it does not take time for him to use the numerous maverick weapons and X has powerups that allow him to use them infinitely

[Valmar]

Im not sure who said cloud has to be hurt to use limit break. Wrong, limit breaks are anger controlled. If im not mistaken in ff7 they go up by themselves. Also, seeing as how you cant use materia here, cloud probably wont win. You guys are taking into consederation that when the ff7 warriors fought any big monster their main skills were material. Very very seldom could you beat any real chalanger without the use of materia.

Sh0e what game have you been playing?!?!? Cloud cant fly...

[Titusfied]

In the other game he has a guest appearance in, he can fly, evidently. And Breaks Limits are a tricky thing. They appear in the game to be damagae induced, but at the end when Cloud and Sephiroth are squared off, just the shear presence of Sephiroth gets Clouds Limit soaring up to the point of Omni-Slash Heaven!

I guess if Cloud gets mad enough, he can use Limits, but then again, I highly doubt that if no one other than Sephiroth could induce that type of Limit to occur, then X doesn't have a shit shot in hell to do it. Damage would appear to be the way in this Battle case.

[sh0e]

Im not sure who said cloud has to be hurt to use limit break. Wrong, limit breaks are anger controlled. If im not mistaken in ff7 they go up by themselves. Also, seeing as how you cant use materia here, cloud probably wont win. You guys are taking into consederation that when the ff7 warriors fought any big monster their main skills were material. Very very seldom could you beat any real chalanger without the use of materia.

Sh0e what game have you been playing?!?!? Cloud cant fly...

read my former post
in kingdom hearts cloud flies when you fight cloud teamed with some other guy

btw should i edit that post for grammar? if its really not readable like that ill edit it

[Valmar]

I didnt see you mention kingdom hearts.... But cloud is nothing but a swordsmen without materia or anger induced limit breaks. This is kind of an unfair batlle ddont you think?? Maybe he should be able to use materia? Otherwise how can he defeat any real challanger?

[sh0e]

Apparently, Cloud is able to fly in kingdom hearts, which could be a huge advantage.
maybe you should actually read the thread before posting and maybe while your doing that the rules too

[!King_Amazon!]

Cloud can't use materia, yet X can use all these godly upgrades. I'm not understanding how this is suppose to be even.

[Valmar]

Shoe, dont start with me you little peon. Your the one who should read the rules i know he cant use materia, im saying how the fuck is this fair??? megaman is one big ass upgrade, yet cloud is a human... thats not aloud to use any of his actuall powers... yet megaman can use all of his... can we say handicaped match?
This wasnt a well thought out match..

[Senesia]

The Charged Shot X1 - X4 is not comparable with the one X uses in X5 - X6 in certain armor. It is blockable as in, you can stop it from moving further, but by doing so, the one who's defending will take damage, unless he's using a foot thick shield. (Sort of like Blast damage which stay for a few seconds)

What can Cloud do when he's flying? He might be a master in close-ranged battle, but...leaving the ground and keeping a distance from X? Say, when Cloud is in the air, X could use Meteor Shower (Charged Maverick weapon in X6) and...I don't think Cloud would be able to dodge them.

U-Buster in X6 makes ALL of X shots (Including Maverick Weapon) charged. It takes no time at all.

Omnislash is a combo (Combo of slashes), apparently. As I have said, X has this Damage Barrier which will activate whenever he gets hit. With D-Barrier (a part), the duration of the invulnerable doubles. After the first hit gets in, the several follows will not damage X. That would account for any combo performed to X, actually.

P.S. There was an arugment about the ability to use magic for FF characters awhile back, by the way.

[BlueCube]

One thing to add about the "flying Cloud" thing in KH:

After he's done with his little rampage (about 20 seconds worth) he gets extremely tired - to the point where he completely stops for about 5 seconds or so, leaning on his sword, out of breath. At that point, he's easy as heck for Sora to get a few combos on. I'd say that X would take him out right there, if Cloud were to pull his little flying move..

[Raziel]

Cloud can't use materia, yet X can use all these godly upgrades. I'm not understanding how this is suppose to be even.


You're forgetting that X doesn't have an unlimited amount of ammo for those special weapons of his. He wouldn't have very much leeway before he found himself having to rely almost entirely upon his primary weapon.

Plus, I don't think you people are giving Cloud nearly enough credit for his physical advantages. If he can fly, he has greater mobility, and is therefore harder to shoot. I don't care what kind of tracking systems X has, a flying target is difficult to shoot one way or another.

Cloud also proved himself capable of physical feats that no normal human could ever imagine doing. Has X ever been impaled on a 6-foot katana and then used his impaled torso as a fulcrum on which to toss another human being off of a cliff? I think not.

Also, Cloud isn't going to be phased by a couple of different energy weapons nearly as easily as you people seem to think he would be. His blood courses with Mako, thereby making him stronger, faster and more reistsant to all kinds of damage than any normal creature. If Cloud is capable of stomaching an attack like Supernova, what the hell makes you think that a charged Mega Buster shot is going to even so much as scratch him?

None of you are giving Cloud nearly the amount of credit he deserves. He has a lot more advantages than just using an assload of materia, and if you want Cloud to win, you have to start thinking outside of that very narrow box.

And, if I recall correctly, Cloud didn't need to charage any kind of Limit Meter to use his Final Fantasy Tactics Limit Breaks. Those just ate up MP. Materia or not, he still has MP at his disposal.

[Kuja]

If he can fly, he has greater mobility, and is therefore harder to shoot.
One thing to add about the "flying Cloud" thing in KH:

After he's done with his little rampage (about 20 seconds worth) he gets extremely tired - to the point where he completely stops for about 5 seconds or so, leaning on his sword, out of breath.
So by getting exhausted quickly he wont be flying forever and will need to rest.


If Cloud is capable of stomaching an attack like Supernova, what the hell makes you think that a charged Mega Buster shot is going to even so much as scratch him?

The in-battle super nova is actualy quite weak. It's more of a area effect spell with average damage. Nothing more.


And, if I recall correctly, Cloud didn't need to charage any kind of Limit Meter to use his Final Fantasy Tactics Limit Breaks. Those just ate up MP. Materia or not, he still has MP at his disposal.

In FF Tactics he need to use his Materia Blade to do Limit and the blade is extremly weak.

[Raziel]

Shit, yeah, you're right Kuja. I forgot exactly how his Limits worked in FFT. But, that actually stands to work better than if they burned MP. Why? Because the standard amount of time allocated to any combat turn in an RPG is three seconds. I recall it taking something around 5 to 10 full rounds of charging in order for Cloud to use most of his Limits. That would mean Cloud would have to spend a maximum of 30 seconds charging an attack in order to use one of his FFT Limits. He could simply have his Materia Blade equipped while he's charging, use the Limit, and then switch to the Ultima Weapon when he's finished. Plus, while he's charging, if he took any damage from one of X's attacks, his FF7 Limit gauge would continue to increase, preparing him for yet another Limit Break soon after.

[Kuja]

I dont recall Cloud being able to switch equipment during combat in any games.

[!King_Amazon!]

I don't remember X having access to ALL of his upgrades from ALL of the games in a single game, so stfu.

[Kuja]

KA what you just said make no sense at all.
It's like if your saying Cloud cant use ability of more then 1 game in the fight. It's the whole point of Zelaron Melee... character being able to do what they did in all their games.

Cloud wouldnt be able to change equipment in-battle cause he cant do it in any of the game that he is.

X can change his weapon he use while in battle. But he cannot change his armor. It's how the game work and how it is.

Like i said in a previous battle of X or Zero. Not all weapon can be equip on X or Zero and thats normal. Cause there is an ammount of slot for those weapon allowed on them and trying to put more would be like trying to put 15 toaster in a normal plug. It wouldnt work.

[Medieval Bob]

I don't remember X having access to ALL of his upgrades from ALL of the games in a single game, so stfu.

I believe the rules were stated as a character having access to all abilities and features specifically for that character in all games (s)he participated in.

As just stated, Cloud has access to all of his weapons and abilities. However, none of his abilities included switching weapons mid-fight.

X has access to all of his features from all of his games. (Might I add, nobody has included the Marvel vs Capcom fighting games in any of this.) X has the ability to switch weapons on the dime, and he can use this in the fight.

[Sovereign]

Hes probably refering to kingdom hearts, in which he can just jump reaaaaly high. Mega man also has zero's sabre. So if he wanted to. X could sparr with cloud mono e mono with swords. Him being the machine, and not being able to get tired, would eventually win.

X raises the sabre triumphantly over the bloody,, burned carcass of cloud.

[!King_Amazon!]

Cloud has faced opponents much harder than X, he fought ruby and emerald. He shouldn't have any trouble at all beating X.

[RoboticSilence]

Might I add, nobody has included the Marvel vs Capcom fighting games in any of this

Might I add that no one remembers Ehrgeiz either.

[Sovereign]

Cloud has faced opponents much harder than X, he fought ruby and emerald. He shouldn't have any trouble at all beating X.

You honestly think that a tireless machien with an energy blade will lose to a mere mortal. Your assuming that could has even versed creatures the likes of x, which he hasnt to my knowledge.

[Kuja]

Wrong he didnt beat ruby and emerald. It wasnt 1vs1 against ruby and emerald. He beat them using summon and partner with heal and items like potion and stuff. So plenty of stuff he doesnt have access to.

He mostly rely on teamwork something he cannot get in zelaron melee which is going to be giving him a weakness over X.

X on the other hand is quite the loner in the battle field which give him an advantage already but even bigger when you count what i said above. That Cloud is a mostly team work dependent in most situation.

[sh0e]

The Charged Shot X1 - X4 is not comparable with the one X uses in X5 - X6 in certain armor. It is blockable as in, you can stop it from moving further, but by doing so, the one who's defending will take damage, unless he's using a foot thick shield. (Sort of like Blast damage which stay for a few seconds)
just though i should comment that cloud wields the "ultima weapon".. im sure that this blade can easily contest with a foot thick wall if not surpass it in immense proportions

What can Cloud do when he's flying? He might be a master in close-ranged battle, but...leaving the ground and keeping a distance from X? Say, when Cloud is in the air, X could use Meteor Shower (Charged Maverick weapon in X6) and...I don't think Cloud would be able to dodge them.
should take a significant amount of energy to shoot and i could see cloud dodging or slicing the meteors or blocking/deflecting with the "ultima weapon"

U-Buster in X6 makes ALL of X shots (Including Maverick Weapon) charged. It takes no time at all.
still takes energy though right?

Hes probably refering to kingdom hearts, in which he can just jump reaaaaly high. Mega man also has zero's sabre. So if he wanted to. X could sparr with cloud mono e mono with swords. Him being the machine, and not being able to get tired, would eventually win.
there is a limit to how high X can jump.. i dont think theres a limit for cloud flying around
oh and btw.. im quite sure a weapon of the likes of the "ultima weapon" could probably match the zero saber

if flying makes cloud tired enough to even stop for 5 seconds.. that would be a serious problem for cloud

raziel i think you are discounting the fact that X is a machine.. a robot.. even if cloud has strength above the normal human i dont think it can contest with a robot like X whose strength is greater even in comparison to the numerous battle mechs X encounters in the games

btw for those of you curious about ehrgeiz you might want to look here gamefaqs.com/features/recognition/1563.html has cloud in it
but the d-barrier or invincibility of X that senesia mentions will probably nullify a lot of this

theres something interesting from ehrgeiz.. the ability to dodge or "fade away" that can be used in the air as well and will allow cloud to dodge projectiles
and also even more fun is the "get-up" stuff where when cloud is knocked down he can stand up and do things like limited invincibility or fade-away or kick etc

i dont know how to count this.. but omnislash is treated like a throw move which may be able to get around the invincibility thing of X

[sh0e]

You're forgetting that X doesn't have an unlimited amount of ammo for those special weapons of his. He wouldn't have very much leeway before he found himself having to rely almost entirely upon his primary weapon.
actually no.. X has powerups that allow him to use maverick weapons without using up energy (normal shots i mean.. charged up shots still take up energy.. just less amounts)

[Senesia]

For each of the 8 weapons, X can use them for about 8-12 times. (The charged Maverick weapons) With Blade Armor, it only consume one thrid of the energy. Actually, I'll list all his weapons in X6 at the bottom of this post.

The charged X-Buster/Z-Saber consumes no energy at all.

In Blade Armor, X's Air-Dashes can deal damage and he is semi-invulnerable. (And it travels for quite a long distance) Sure, Cloud can fly higher, but what will he be doing high up in the sky? Also, as many have mentioned, Cloud cannot sustain in the air forever, and he will take a lot of damage when he lands due to tiredness.

A throw move cannot get around the D-Barrier, this is how it works: Assuming that X gets hit, (And grabbed, stuck, whatever and can't get away) the first contact will deal damage, then D-Barrier will activate, and last for sevearl seconds (around 8 sec, doubled.) then if he's still in his opponent's grip, he will take another damage again, and the D-Barrier will activate once more.

His Maverick weapons: (Number of times he can use, charged)
Yammar Option: (24)
Summons 3 dragonflies (flashing) and they will shoot at random directions for around 15 seconds. Cannot be destroyed during this time. Afterward, they turn back to normal dragonflies. Then will shoot when X shoot. (They fly around X and shoot...)

Magma Blade: (36)
X fires a large fireball, then multiple fireballs will fly toward that same direction. Multiple hits.

Ground Dash: (18)
X freezes everything around him and creates a huge rock projectile, shooting it straight ahead. It has a very good area of effect.

Ice Burst: (18)
X's dashes will form icicles on his path. The icicles will move vertically, and damage the enemies which come into contact. The effect last for around 15 seconds.

Meteor Rain: (18)
X fires a bubble to the sky, and then it will rain bubbles. The bubbles will bounce around and they path are quite unpredictable.

Metal Anchor: (18)
X fires a metal squadron...down diagonally. Can hit multiple times. (Can be use in air)

Guard Shell: (24)
4 shells will be created at the 4 corners of the screen, and they will shoot purple energy shots. They stay for a pretty long amount of time.

Ray Arrow: (18)
X will fire large lasers straight up from the ground, covering half of the screen. Huge area of effect, huge damage.

X has a W-Tank, he can use that to refill all 8 of the weapons once. Also, he has D-converted equipped, and it will fill the weapon energy as X takes damage. He can use all his maverick weapons a lot of times.

[sh0e]

A throw move cannot get around the D-Barrier, this is how it works: Assuming that X gets hit, (And grabbed, stuck, whatever and can't get away) the first contact will deal damage, then D-Barrier will activate, and last for sevearl seconds (around 8 sec, doubled.) then if he's still in his opponent's grip, he will take another damage again, and the D-Barrier will activate once more.
well.. maybe its different but an example is in mmx1 the first boss grabs him without damaging or activating invincibility.. i remember ive seen this elsewhere as well.. ill try and find a source when and if i remember anything

anyways in a throw the grab doesnt damage.. it just catches and holds in place.. and then the damage is inflicted
the throw would effectively treat the entire throw as a single move.. thus it would bypass the d-barrier wouldnt it?

also if i remember correctly.. after shooting a charged shot X cant shoot anything or can only shoot normal buster shots right until the charged shot is over right? this would be a good opening for cloud (for some of the weapons)

having to stop flying is a big problem though.. but cloud could use the fade-away ability from ehrzeig

[Senesia]

This is X6. The D-Barrier part, which X can equip, is something from X6 as well.

Throughout the Rockman series, the damage barrier activate when there is body contact.

X can still use his semi-invulnerable Mach Dash (Air-dash in Blade Armor...I think that's what it's called) to dodge most of the attacks after he released a maverick weapon charged shot.

[sh0e]

You can stand on enemies that have platforms on them without activating the damage barrier right? Wouldnt standing on the platform (which is a part of the enemies body) be "contact?"
And if you remember the "lion" boss stage of mmx4.. you will remember that the boss in one of his specials actually charges and grabs X and then runs him into the wall without activating the damage barrier until he rams him into the wall.
I'm pretty sure the damage barrier.. being named a "damage" barrier.. is in direct relation to being activated by "damage" inducing attacks. And in all of the rockman series contact to non platform areas of enemies causes damage.. thus causing damage barrier activation.

And since throws are treated as single attacks and deal the damage as a single attack, the barrier would probably not be activated until the damage is dealt.
I will post some screenshots when i get the chance proving my point for the "lion" boss and the first boss of mmx1 and the platform theory so as to make the point more easily understandable.

.
And another very interesting point to pose.. any direct contact to X would cause damage.. thus Cloud would not need to even attack him but just touch him and then run.

[Senesia]

Platforms on an enemies does not count as enemies.

Also, I am mainly talking about X6 here. The D-Barrier part, the Blade Armor are all from X6. What he is capable of doing in MMX1 has nothing to do with what X can do in Blade Armor.

As we all know, in MMX, any form of contact between X and an enemy will result in X taking minor damage. It is set to be like so that when we play the game, X can't just dash-dash-air-dash to the Boss room and ignore everything. But the damage dealt to X is negligible when he has Blade Armor on.

What is the point of them doing damage? Without armor (or certain part), X will get stunned whenever he's damaged. (made contact with an enemy, whatever) While the damage is still very little, it will stop X from moving freely.

With Blade Armor however, X will not be stunned when he takes damage. He can literally ignore everything and just go directly into the Boss room with his Air-dashes. (Avoiding the spikes, of course.)

In this system, all X cannot do on Cloud would be...say, he can't jump and land on Cloud's weapon or use Cloud's body to perfrom a kick jump.

[sh0e]

i thought d-barrier just extends the time the damage barrier is active?

im taking into account the structure of the X series engine to try to argue that just clouds first touch on x will not activate damage barrier
and i still dont really see though how that proves that a throw attack version of omnislash would be affected by the invincibility
cloud is effectively going up and executing a throw attack on him.. just because he does not get stunned would not prevent him from being hit
it might allow X to instantly make a counter attack.. i guess

[sh0e]

ok i just want to show some arguments to try to prove that the damage barrier will not stop said throw attack of omnislash
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/478121/Image1.jpg
this is from rockman x4 military train stage boss
at < half life the boss uses a special where he jumps at you and grabs you then rams you into the wall.. the invincibility does not kick in until you ram into the wall

i dont think you can say x6 does not use about the same engine as x4 and i dont think the invincibility acts differently
correct me if im wrong

think about what the invincibility after taking a hit was designed for.. the megaman engines all take damage when touching enemies.. thus you will take enormous amounts of consecutive damage if the invincibility did not exist
it would not make sense for the invincibility to kick in if megaman does not suffer from damage.. or is supposed to be "stuck"

[Senesia]

Omnislash does not work like throwing. Omnislash is really a 15-slash combo, each slash has it own damage.

[sh0e]

Omnislash does not work like throwing. Omnislash is really a 15-slash combo, each slash has it own damage.
hm.. i should make my stuff easier to read i guess
in ehrgeiz.. a fighting game that contains cloud.. the omnislash is treated as a throw move
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/ehrgeiz_cloud_a.txt
section 4.6 check "executed throws"

[Senesia]

It doesn't matter what it is treated as in a game. A throw move in an arcade or fighting game simply means that it's unblockable, or you have to get really close to the opponent in order to execute it. It still slashes multiple times, each time doing different damage. (In Ehrgeiz, it can be break out of too, from what I've read.)

[!King_Amazon!]

What do you mean it doesn't matter what it is treated as in a game?

[Senesia]

A throw move in an arcade or fighting game simply means that it's unblockable, or you have to get really close to the opponent in order to execute it.

[Valmar]

I think there should be some guidlines as to which games can be used to as refference. Like say for instance, cloud can only use skills and such from FF7. Understand what i mean?? That way it would cut down on all this controversy as to which skills are treated as what and what skills can block what and so forth. Just my input. I think cloud will descimate MegaMan for the simple fact cloud isnt human at all, his blood was fused with mako which inhances all of his natural abilities alot, hence his great power with a sword. Also, if cloud can defeat the ultima weapon and ruby weapon and emreald weapon he can most certanly defeat a little steal smuff dont you think?

[sh0e]

I think there should be some guidlines as to which games can be used to as refference. Like say for instance, cloud can only use skills and such from FF7. Understand what i mean?? That way it would cut down on all this controversy as to which skills are treated as what and what skills can block what and so forth. Just my input. I think cloud will descimate MegaMan for the simple fact cloud isnt human at all, his blood was fused with mako which inhances all of his natural abilities alot, hence his great power with a sword. Also, if cloud can defeat the ultima weapon and ruby weapon and emreald weapon he can most certanly defeat a little steal smuff dont you think?
we have already discussed most of those issues prior.. like defeating the "weapons"
cloud may be endowed with more power from the mako.. but the "vessel" is still a human body.. and furthermore cloud is still only strong in comparison to the humans of the game

It doesn't matter what it is treated as in a game. A throw move in an arcade or fighting game simply means that it's unblockable, or you have to get really close to the opponent in order to execute it. It still slashes multiple times, each time doing different damage. (In Ehrgeiz, it can be break out of too, from what I've read.)
i think you are referring to when you press block at the same time the opponent tries to throw you.. right when you are about to get thrown you flash white for like a half second or so.. this time allows you to counter the throw and escape.. i dont think you can break in the middle of a throw
When you are grabbed, you will either be thrown or hit. When you are about to be
thrown you, you will flash white. At this time when you are flashing white,
press the Guard button to break the fall. The hard thing is that by the time you
see yourself flash white, you have no time to react. So, you got to use your
eyes and look and estimate when to press the Guard button. It is impossible to
do so if you do not understand the throw well. When you are hit, try and press
the Guard button just before the next hit hits you.
but you are right the throw omnislash still hits multiple slashes each doing damage and if you are very fast and lucky you can actually kind of run away from it (parts of it since some of it is connected as combos)
there really isnt much thats usable from ehrzeig as far as attacks go.. since due to its fighting engine nature it consists mostly of powerful combo attacks
maybe only skull break and deathblow as individual attacks.. perhaps followed by tackle or soldier takedown (takedown does some damage and you will see why it might help below)

anyways i found something else too.. the tackle move which allows you to tackle units even while invincible
Tackles work well against opponents who ground recover. Even if you
connect with their body while they're invincible, you'll still take
your opponents down.
so Cloud could tackle X to the ground while X is invincible.. though im not sure how this will help Cloud all that much except give X less time to pummel Cloud while invincible

in any case my only main arguments for now are projectile evasion/fading out that can be used consecutively and clouds sword which additionally has far reach

ill still try to disprove the use of invincibility somehow.. im tempted to try to go on the basis that combos becomes like a single stream of connected attacks

[Kuja]

Like say for instance, cloud can only use skills and such from FF7. Understand what i mean??
Using all attack they have access to is the whole point of Zelaron melee.
Of course some character cant have access to everything they had because of special limitation.
Like X that actualy started as Blue Bomber, became Rockman, MegaMan then X. It would be impossible for him to have all those weapon equiped in one suit. Also, at a few occasion he did receive big modification which would render him incompatible with weapon he had in the past.

if cloud can defeat the ultima weapon and ruby weapon and emreald weapon he can most certanly defeat a little steal smuff dont you think?
Like i said in a earlier post Cloud does not defeat weapons in 1on1. It's actualy with 2 partners and using spells/summons and items which he doesnt have on Zelaron melee. Now tell me something.

Can Cloud even stand a chance without ally, materia and items against any of the weapons ? The awnser is no. He would get destroyed.

[sh0e]

Right now.. these are probably most of the arguments I can possibly think of right now.

Cloud has the influence of Mako in his blood and is stronger than the average human, especially evident that Cloud can wield such tremendous weapons and can do such feats as use his punctured body as a fulcrum to throw someone. This should help to lessen the advantage that X has, being a machine, but obviously being that Cloud is still in essence human it cannot eliminate the fact that X is still a machine and is stronger in comparison even to the other machines X encounters.

I am not sure as to the immediate usefulness of this but Cloud can do sword catch from Ehrgeiz and could be able to abuse this if X ever tries to whip the Z-saber on Cloud. It is of course highly disputable if Cloud could indeed catch the Z-saber. Cloud can also interrupt combos and since Z-saber hits multiple hits like a combo and weapons like charged buster that leaves plasma can also be seen like a combo Cloud may be able to interrupt these. Both of the aforementioned can be followed with a counter hit which apparently in Ehrgeiz do more damage than direct hits.

The mentioned air dash attacks or any other head on attacks could be countered Ehrgeiz style with throws/grabs or counter attacks.

Cloud can use his "evade" ability from Ehrgeiz.. which allows him to dodge attacks and this ability can be used consecutively to dodge multiple attacks. Evade can also be used in the air and Cloud continues to move while evading (if he is already in motion). Evade will be most effective against most of X's attacks (of which are almost all projectile). An important example is dodging X's charged buster attack.. while X shoots the attack Cloud can run and jump evade in for a close attack. Thus Cloud can prove formidable even without flying.

If in desperation Cloud can use his ability of flight from Kingdom Hearts, which is without saying a great advantage, especially for mobility and for avoiding most of X attacks. However, it should be noted that flight takes a large toll as Cloud must reportedly stop for as much as 5 seconds after flying.

Cloud has some special abilities like meteorain, but unfortunately take time to cast and Cloud would become easy prey for X and X's ability to shoot quickly. Cloud could probably be able to pull these off while flying though. Or he can use the Ehrgeiz versions (he has some shot attacks and metorain) which are faster since its from a fighting game.

Cloud can recover from being knocked down in "stand up" moves from Ehrgeiz which allows him to have limited invincibility or use the "evade" ability or even counter attack after standing up. This should be useful if Cloud is hit.

Cloud's blade the Ultima Weapon should not be underestimated. Ultima Weapon is not just an oversized sword and "isn't even technically metal, it's a weird half-energy, half matter composite if anything." A weapon of such properties would probably be able to deflect concentrated energy in the form of projectiles or at least absorb the impact and could probably match X's Zero saber. The Ultima Weapon is also the most powerful weapon in Kingdom Hearts as well. Clouds blade could also prove useful as a shield for blocking and deflecting attacks.. especially the projectile attacks along with the "evade" ability. Cloud's blade is additionally a far reaching and damaging weapon.

Senesia has brought out a very strong and annoying (for argument against X) point of the invincibility for X after sustaining damage. This allows X to be invincible for some time after he has been hit and is used as a powerful point by Senesia that any attacks that involve multiple hits or combo attacks will be useless since the first hit will activate the invincibility. For now, unless combo attacks can be treated as a single attack, only the first hit will be effective thus rendering many of Cloud's attacks ineffective.. especially those from Ehrgeiz and attacks like omnislash. For this the ability to "tackle" from Ehrgeiz will prove useful as an opponent who is invincible can be tackled. Cloud can use one hit specials or multiple hit specials that end quickly and follow with a tackle move.

There is a limit to how many times the maverick weapons of X can be used (limits are around 18 24 36.. not much of a limit.. and then the W-tank). And then there is U-Buster which allows all shots to be charged shots. But charged maverick shots must finish before maverick weapons or charged shots can be used again (is this different in X6? or have i remembered incorrectly?).
This should give Cloud a small opportunity. Added also that Cloud would probably be able to sustain damage from more than one charged shot, the Ultima Weapon should be able to protect Cloud somewhat, and Cloud may be able to dodge some of the attacks especially with evade; Cloud could use one of his stand up abilities after being hit and may be able to survive until X uses up the energy. Also to note is that none of those maverick weapons are specifically Cloud's weakness and maverick weapons do not do a whole lot of damage to bosses that are not weak to the specific weapons. This may improve Cloud's ability to resist damage from those weapons.
Also to note is the mention that Cloud can stomach a supernova: (merriam-webster) the explosion of a very large star in which the star may reach a maximum intrinsic luminosity one billion times that of the sun (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=supernova). I would say thats a whole lot of damage to stomach and if that is weak.. then perhaps you should scale up all attacks in ff7 as I'm pretty sure most of the attacks in megaman x series are not to the degree of exploding stars.. not to mention things of "magical" power.

Or maybe Cloud can taunt X to death (Ehrgeiz) and piss X off so much that his circuits burn out.

Anyways, I tried. lmao

ehrgeiz -> mame ~27mb zip ;i like fighting games
megaman zero 1/2 -> gba ~3.5mb ;small & may have details to end this.. and who doesnt like megaman?
have a version of x5 but it doesnt run (freezes comp with black screen probably comp fault)
ill probably never get my hands on x6.. sounds cool/fun tho

[Titusfied]

Well, Cloud did have to beat Ruby on his own. Not all his battles are through the use of 3 characters and teamwork, he does actually have a lot of individual quests and battles that he fair quite well in.

Either way, I'm basically disregading any arguement that would put Cloud at a disadvantage just because most of the game he has 2 other people's help. That isn't and shouldn't be a concern.

[Senesia]

I don't think sword catch can catch Z-saber, mainly because it is an energy weapon.

Air-Dash attack (Mach Dash) in Blade Armor is semi-invincibile. X cannot be stopped, stunned, hurt, caught during the dash.

X can evade attacks just as well as Cloud. (With his double jumps, air dash, ground dash, etc.) He can even air dash in all 4 directions, frontdash and backdash, and he can finish the dash with a really long-ranged jump. When he is doing all his jumping and dashing, he can use any of his attacks. When X is dodging an attack, he can be countering and firing back at Cloud at the same time.

X doesn't have to get close to Cloud if Cloud is being knocked down... X can shoot him and make him get up from a distance. Keeping a distance from the enemy is always X's way of battling.

About the damage barrier, well you see, X has his disadvantages. He can't block. Well he can, by using certain Maverick weapons, but naturally he can't. It is how it is in-game. When an enemy shoot multiple missiles at X, if the first one hits, X will take damage and start flashing (or, a circular energy barrier will surround X), other missiles will hit X as well, but they won't count for any damage when the barrier is active / when X is flashing.

Cloud's Dexterity is just on the average range (the speed, on a round based battle system)... for he's wielding such huge weapon and all, his movement should be slower comparing to X. Cloud's magic defense is just average (Spirit), but even if you are to say that Maverick weapons are physical...True, Cloud doesn't have a specific weakness to any of those maverick weapons (He's not a Maverick, afterall. I hope...) The argument about Maverick weapons not doing lots of damages are faulty. Charged Maverick weapons do immense damage when they hit, some of them, Ray Arrow for instance, are even comparable to the Gaia attack.

There are several things you're forgetting though. X's weapon energy will recover as he takes damage, and he has two Sub-Tanks and 1 Life recover. Plently of energy before he'd fall down. (By the way, I've never seen X fall down...he can get stunned if he doesn't have certain part equipped, but fall down on the ground...but it's something minor.)

P.S. Got to go out...might come back.

[!King_Amazon!]

These sub tanks and stuff, should they even be allowed? They aren't really weapons, sound more like items to me, and I don't think items are allowed.

[Senesia]

I've talked about the Tanks in the previous battle. Tanks are like a part of the Armor, the sub-energy stored in the armor. Different armors have different capacity, like X can have up to 4 sub tanks and 1 part (Unless using Gold Armor) in X3. (While Zero doesn't have access to any upgrade or tank in that game...)

[Kuja]

Well, Cloud did have to beat Ruby on his own. Not all his battles are through the use of 3 characters and teamwork, he does actually have a lot of individual quests and battles that he fair quite well in.

Either way, I'm basically disregading any arguement that would put Cloud at a disadvantage just because most of the game he has 2 other people's help. That isn't and shouldn't be a concern.

True he has to fight on his own against ruby unless you bring the 2 other members of the party dead and revive them in battle.
But he has his summons, spells and items when fighting weapon and this is something he doesnt have here. You think it shouldnt be concern ? I think it is, ppl started to point out he could beat weapon and im simply pointing out that with his zelaron melee capacity he cannot stand a chance against them.

[sh0e]

I've talked about the Tanks in the previous battle. Tanks are like a part of the Armor, the sub-energy stored in the armor. Different armors have different capacity, like X can have up to 4 sub tanks and 1 part (Unless using Gold Armor) in X3. (While Zero doesn't have access to any upgrade or tank in that game...)
yes but they are still tank "parts"
you dont start with them built into the armor.. you get items which you can add and integrate into your armor.. so they are still technically add-ons that are not directly part of the armor or weaponry
perhaps this may even apply to some parts
also.. X requires power up "items" to fill the tanks for use

[Medieval Bob]

If characters are only allowed to use what they start with, then cloud can't use omnislash or any powerful sword. The argument that a character doesn't start with something is no argument at all.

Besides, the sub tank is consistantly available to X. He always has use of it, and there is no reason he should not be able to use it. Yes, he has to fill up his tanks, but they most certainly can be already filled. (Nearly 100% of the time when I played Megaman games I only enter boss fights with all tanks full. Why would the actual character do anything different?)

Also, add-ons are allowed and have always been allowed if they are an ability that that character recieves in a game. It is something that the character can do. These battles are based upon what a character is actually able to do.

[sh0e]

im not talking about "started with"
im talking about the fact that the tanks are not equivalent to the armor
they are added into the armor and are distinctly seperate items that you get
and someone mentioned earlier that items are not allowed.. and seems only weaponry or direct natural abilities are allowed

but i do see why this argument is not really valid since once X finds the tanks it becomes more like a learned ability that can be used during battle
but you must of course remember that tanks do not start out filled.. they must be filled with stored energy.. by getting extra energy items and in a way storing the items into the tank

[!King_Amazon!]

These battles are based on what the character can do? If I remember correctly, cloud was able to use materia, summons, items, etc. The rules are bent in favor of some characters making the battles unfair.

[sh0e]

Maybe the issue of those rules targetted at ff characters should be walked around.. I remember the rules mentioning that if this becomes a problem that ff characters will just be removed.

Anyways kind of an addition to what K_A has already said
Don't you think that Cloud would stock up on items prior to going up against X? Being completely prepared? But he is not allowed to.
Then why would X be allowed to stock up on energy gained from items prior to battle?

[BlueCube]

im not talking about "started with"
im talking about the fact that the tanks are not equivalent to the armor
they are added into the armor...

...tanks do not start out filled.. they must be filled with stored energy.. by getting extra energy items and in a way storing the items into the tank

I think of it as more like Samus's armor. Extra "energy tanks" she gets are simply added to her already cool armor. They are PART of the armor, not items.

Plus, (at least in the early X's) you can save stored sub-tank energy from round to round. X would definately come into this battle fully charged, as Bob mentioned.

-----

I do remember, also, a certain Maverick weapon (the first X, on the SNES) that fires off a 3-way shot uncharged, and when it's charged, makes X completely invincible and still able to fire the 3-way shot. I think he got it off a chameleon or something.. but I haven't played that one in a while.

[Kuja]

These battles are based on what the character can do?
Yes about what they can do! Not what the materia can do or the items they find can do. It's the character fighting not Knight of the Round or Ultima. Cloud is a fighter not a caster. It's clear and simple.

If you think it's unfair it's cause you dont actualy understand Cloud. Sure he isnt as killer as in ff7 with materia equip and 99 x-potion + shield/wall/reflect and you name it... But that doesnt mean that he is a weakling. His fighting skill are not gone. Cause he doesnt have access to materia aint gonna mean he will fight X using some bamboo stick with a paperbag handle.

[sh0e]

These battles are based on what the character can do?
Yes about what they can do! Not what the materia can do or the items they find can do. It's the character fighting not Knight of the Round or Ultima. Cloud is a fighter not a caster. It's clear and simple.[/QUOTE]
it is the character that incites and uses/controls the materia
the materia in a sense becomes an extension of Cloud
are you saying that when a wizard casts a fireball to attack enemies that they are not the ones attacking?

If you think it's unfair it's cause you dont actualy understand Cloud. Sure he isnt as killer as in ff7 with materia equip and 99 x-potion + shield/wall/reflect and you name it... But that doesnt mean that he is a weakling. His fighting skill are not gone. Cause he doesnt have access to materia aint gonna mean he will fight X using some bamboo stick with a paperbag handle.
highly contradictory to things you have mentioned prior

Plus, (at least in the early X's) you can save stored sub-tank energy from round to round. X would definately come into this battle fully charged, as Bob mentioned.
yes but can X naturally without outside influences taken from other enemies or outside sources charge up the tanks?

I do remember, also, a certain Maverick weapon (the first X, on the SNES) that fires off a 3-way shot uncharged, and when it's charged, makes X completely invincible and still able to fire the 3-way shot. I think he got it off a chameleon or something.. but I haven't played that one in a while.
from mmx1.. probably not useful here.. i seriously doubt the weapon would be powerful enough to take out cloud and X would probably not be able to use that with the armors of X6 (?)

I think of it as more like Samus's armor. Extra "energy tanks" she gets are simply added to her already cool armor. They are PART of the armor, not items.
cant tanks be interchangable between armors (X6)?
i dont see how that makes the tanks fused with the armors if they are interchangable.. that makes them technically more like items that are inserted into the armor

[Kuja]

I dont think you actualy did read. You more checked a few word and started to quote.

Did you read the "Hes not a caster" part ?
Caster do spell to kill for them. Melee dont. Is that hard to understand ? Im sure it aint.

Why would mmxx1 be weaker cause it's from a older game ? That argument make no sense at all.
It also would most likely be compatible with his armor in X6 as he never really had major basic physical change.

[sh0e]

so you are saying that cloud should not be allowed to cast simply because he is (by opinion i might add) generalized as a nothing but "melee" character? sorry i do not see that as a strong nor valid argument at all

and maybe YOU should read more carefully as i never said it was less powerful simply cuz its from mmx1 but that i seriously doubt that attack is powerful enough to damage Cloud
if you had read my previous large summary and some prior comments you would have seen the reasoning.. normal maverick attacks are effective for damage on bosses with the particular weakness but not much on others

[Senesia]

I do remember, also, a certain Maverick weapon (the first X, on the SNES) that fires off a 3-way shot uncharged, and when it's charged, makes X completely invincible and still able to fire the 3-way shot. I think he got it off a chameleon or something.. but I haven't played that one in a while.

Nice memory, that's what the weapon does exactly. I forgot that. The reason why I've only taken X6 into account...well, I don't want to look up all his attacks from X1 - X7, and it is quite hard to decide which 8 weapons he should equip.

Tanks are part of the armor. In X3, with Gold Armor, X can just stand still to refill his Sub-Tanks, all four of them. Those really are some stored energy.

[!King_Amazon!]

Cloud casted meteor in Ergheiz, so I have no clue what you are talking about by saying he's not a caster.

[Kuja]

Sad...
Meteorrain is one of Cloud sword skill he doesnt CAST it.
When Squall does his limit and there is a big light on his sword that he use to hit his enemy. Is he a caster for that ?
It's a sword ability...
In ehrgeiz and ff7 Meteorrain is a Limit break.

[!King_Amazon!]

I'm not talking about squall, I'm talking about Cloud. He doesn't have to hit anything to summon the meteors.

[Kuja]

Squall sword doesnt hit either it's the light.

But i guess you just dont understand. It's the same as in ff7. A limit break that he does using his sword. He doesnt need to hit something with the sword it's a sword technique. Plain and simple.

[sh0e]

yes im sure theirs no magic involved when giant meteors rain out of a sword
its definitely pure "melee"

[Kuja]

Wow you impress me with your lack of understanding.
Was Barret a caster ? NO
Yet he could make this huge bullet that was 20 time bigger then his gun come out by a hole that is actualy 10 time smaller then his gunarm.

[sh0e]

so now his sword is a gun?
wow i never knew swords were meteor shooting weapons

[Kuja]

Thx for proving my point that you do not actualy read post. You just check a few word and do your post.

[sh0e]

yes i was trying to explain in an easier to understand manner.. but its no longer important
easily from your post the gist is understandable

[Kuja]

I know what ehrgeiz is.
What would make me change my mind in that ?

Did you actualy check ALL the other guide ? Is that why you posted this one ? Cause in almost all the other one in gamefaqs its actualy puted under Sword Techniques or Special Move. While in this one it's actualy in a nowhere just telling how to do it.

I guess you just edited your whole post. Anyway read the rule then come back posting.

[sh0e]

and so what if its a sword technique?
whats he hitting with? what is he actually doing?
hes sending a barrage of meteors to damage the opponent
he is not physically "melee" fighting with the sword
and hes not picking up meteors from the ground and flailing them
they are not "naturally" called upon

[Kuja]

Sword Technique heard of them ? This come back to same thing i said earlier... When Squall does his limit with the light that extend from his sword. He hit with the light and not the blade.
OMG ITS A SPELL!!
Sabin does Blitz !
OMG ITS A SPELL!!
Ken in Street Fighter does hadouken !
OMG ITS A SPELL!!

[sh0e]

hm.. ok i see the distinction now somewhat
im still having trouble seeing meteorain as comparable to hadouken especially since meteorain roots from ff7 an rpg game and thus seems to have more "magical" connotations

[Kuja]

Doesnt make sense that they would be spell ?
Well there you go.
Technique.

[sh0e]

spells take time (usually) and magic energy to cast.. techniques dont.. right?

[Kuja]

Thats not true. some technique could be long while some other short.
Same goes with spells.

*******
Cyan FF6.
Sabin FF6.
Zell FF8.
They have some short and long technique.
*******

[sh0e]

ok see this is what im confused by then.. doesnt meteorain drain mp in fft? (raziel mentioned this)

[sh0e]

ok forget this spell vs technique garbage its cluttering up the thread and i can figure it out on my own time..
besides tanks arent really used for inflicting damage and have nothing really to do with spells vs technique so its really all moot
im out of ideas for discussion.. everything i can think of ive listed there:
http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24520&perpage=20&pagenumber=3#post357787


so heres my other questions i wanted to approach
cant tanks be interchangable between armors (X6)?
i dont see how that makes the tanks fused with the armors if they are interchangable.. that makes them technically more like items that are inserted into the armor

[Kuja]

No mp. :)
They charge up.

There is character that have technique requiring mp.
Like Steiner and Freiya in ff9 for example.

Yeah, i would have to agree with that. It look like it's seem more like a storage area for items

[Senesia]

Think of a pure melee Assassin in Diablo2. Fist of Fire, Blade of Ice, Claw of Thunder, Phoenix Strike etc. Or Vengeance for Paladin. Using Magical elements to enchant their melee weapons and attacks don't make them a caster.

Then you are saying that all the parts and upgrades shouldn't be allowed as well? Because they are interchangeable between armors just like tanks.

[sh0e]

im not sure right now..
these rules feel like a whole lot of grey lines..
my head hurts just from the whole technique thing
ill get back to you after i start seeing straight

[Senesia]

I don't really see the different between tanks and upgrades/parts in the later Megaman X series... X5, X6, to be more specific. You get the Tanks/Parts by rescuing hostages...

Also, all of those Hearts Tanks are called Tanks as well, and they permenantly increase the Max. Life/Energy which X has. I can see that as, the tanks being installed into X, if not in the armor.

[!King_Amazon!]

This is getting too long, someone decide a winner and let's move on.

[Kuja`s #1]

Yeah, we're almost to the end. And since only one of my favorite characters is left, we need a new tournament.

[Medieval Bob]

so you are saying that cloud should not be allowed to cast simply because he is (by opinion i might add) generalized as a nothing but "melee" character? sorry i do not see that as a strong nor valid argument at all


Courtesy of the rules.

6. In order to be able to include certain types of characters in these tournaments (namely Final Fantasy characters) then there need to be some adjustments made to their abilities in order to level the playing field. The rule works like this: if a character has the natural ability to use magic, they can cast spells in these battles. If the character requires Materia, Magicite or Guardian Forces in order to cast (or draw) magic, they do not have that ability available to them in these battles. If you would like a more detailed explanation of why, please refer to the sidepoint below this rule. This rule only applies to Final Fantasy player characters (not bosses, not NPCs or side-characters), and if there are problems with it, then the only other course of action is to ban FF characters from these tournaments altogether. I don't want to see that happen, but I also don't think that it is too demanding a guideline.

6-A. The reason for this rule is this: Final Fantasy characters that have the natural ability to cast magic usually have poor physical defense or combat attributes in order to balance their use of magic. Vivi, for example, is a particularly weak character, and his physical weakness is the price he pays for being able to cast destructive magic. Or Terra, from FF6, can naturally cast magic, but her other "special ability" is particularly weak because of it, as opposed to other characters that can't cast magic naturally, but have powerful "special abilities" like Edgar's Tools or Sabin's Blitz Techniques. Final Fantasy 7 characters, however, do not have these balancing attributes. All magic and summoning capabilities are interchangeable. Therefore, one could assume that Cloud (who has incredible physical capabilities) could also be capable of casting Ultima and Knights of the Round. Do you see how unfair and unbalanced that is?

Also, sub-tanks are one of X's main features. He has access to them, and he can and will use them in battles if he so chooses unless a judge states otherwise. There is no reason to continue this argument.

[Cerridwen]

I dont recall Cloud being able to switch equipment during combat in any games.

Yes, you could. You have to equip the Chemist's Equip Change Skill, though. And Raziel was just citing this as an example, not as an added bonus for the spike-ass kid from Midgar.

[sh0e]

so you are saying that cloud should not be allowed to cast simply because he is (by opinion i might add) generalized as a nothing but "melee" character? sorry i do not see that as a strong nor valid argument at all


Courtesy of the rules.
That comment/issue has already been resolved as a misconception of technique vs spell and has already been treated as discounted. There is a large section of comments that discussed that issue and probably should have been split.

Also, sub-tanks are one of X's main features. He has access to them, and he can and will use them in battles if he so chooses unless a judge states otherwise. There is no reason to continue this argument.
Unless you are a judge and speak for the leaders of the zelaron melee, I really do not see where you come off claiming end of discussion or that "there is no reason to continue this argument."
If as mentioned prior, items are not allowed, and the tanks are arguably items, why is this not open to discussion?
Furthermore, if there is possibly an imbalance (specifically here for X), why shouldn't it be discussed? If there is reasoning for ff characters such as Cloud to be crippled in order for balancing, why then is it not open to discussion to attempt to apply rules to X?

In any case, that argument was really laid to rest before you mentioned it, and probably does not and should not matter any longer. If you had not made your comment, I seriously doubt it would have taken any bearing or have had any more related comments. I had even made my last comment (of a non serious nature) and the one before that, both implying that I really was not going to argue that point any longer.
And this thread has pretty much been declared "done," especially when K_A commented that this thread is getting too long.

Anyways, I will just be waiting for the results to come out and will not be participating any longer. Theres already a new tournament: Dante vs Samus (http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24785). It has been ~4 days with no participation.

[Medieval Bob]

First off, step down from your high and mighty chair, peon.

The argument was most certainly not over as you claimed.

If this is your, "I'm done arguing" post, then I say you have trouble expressing yourself.
im not sure right now..
these rules feel like a whole lot of grey lines..
my head hurts just from the whole technique thing
ill get back to you after i start seeing straight

As for where I come off, the fact had been argued. There was no new material on it, and things had been said and re-said. I said there was no reason to discuss it any further because there was no new information therefore, unless sub tanks were disallowed by judges (which, for the record, they have not been disallowed) then they are valid in a battle.

Besides, threads have been stated as being too long numerous times, and that has yet to close any of them.

One more thing! (Jackie Chan Adventures pwn) The reason Final Fantasy characters have been "crippled" is that they are not concentrated characters. They have few distinctions besides their appearance. Final Fantasy X is the best example. If a player takes the time to maximize the potential of the characters, they can all do exactly the same thing. There wouldn't even be a reason to have more than one of them in a tournament as you could just put "Generic FFX Character." This has been stated, explained, and explained again. However, since you posed the question of why X isn't crippled, here is the answer. HE IS X. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITIES, POWERS, AND SPELLS OF EVERY 10 OTHER CHARCTERS.

[sh0e]

First off, step down from your high and mighty chair, peon.
"high and mighty chair"? am i the one declaring what can and cannot be discussed? who are you that i should "bow down" to as a "peon" and hold all your declarations as true?
i hardly see an inquiry against the validity of your right to tell people what arguments should not be continued as using a "high and mighty chair".. especially when your comment left no room for discussion nor opposing opinions

If this is your, "I'm done arguing" post, then I say you have trouble expressing yourself
then maybe i do have trouble expressing myself. because i probably would have made response to the comment Senesia made and i probably would not have used such a relaxed and unserious tone that argued nothing. maybe im expecting too much for that to be seen. i had felt the additional prior comment declaring i really had no more ideas as final.

and if you honestly believed that the argument really would have taken any more bearing then i sincerely apologize
in any case i do not believe you had the right to dictate something that i felt to be much of an "iron fist"
you did not say "probably" or "really" or "no need to".. but rather used a tone of "there _IS NO_ reason".. and that is something that i personally have trouble tolerating

[Titusfied]

I'm closing this. I know Raziel didn't plan on having this open this long. He took our decisions back when there were only like 10 posts in here, but we thought it would serve better to open a new battle and let this go for a little longer.

Start getting active on the other Semi-Final Battle, and the winner will be announed soon enough.

[Raziel]

For the love of God, a winner has been decided!!! Please make a quick stop at the Bracket Thread for the details!!